Convince me to stay electric

[aroncox]

Okay, I have to make a decision now, do I scrap my eZee Torq and buy a regular bike, or do I spend £250 on a new battery (NiMH this time) and charger, and wait a couple of weeks for it to arrive. Obviously that would mean I've already wasted a fair chunk of money on the bike, but I don't want to throw away even more money. Maybe electric bikes just aren't ready for the real world yet. Ideally I'd like both so I can compare, but I can't do that right now, it's one or the other.

Now I'm not all that fit, I don't really want to shower at work every morning, but at 40 I suppose I ought to be able to cycle the relatively flat 10 miles to work in a reasonable time without collapsing at the end.

So please, can someone tell me why I should use an electric bike? Is a light, racing type of bike that much different to commute on? My original reasoning was really the ease of getting *to* work, less sweat, easy to carry things, good for days when I'm not feeling all that wonderful. Is it really that much harder on a regular bike?

So please explain to me the benefits of an electric over regular bike, and just how having an electric bike has worked for you.

Thanks.

 

[alex]

Sorry you are so fed up with your Torq, 250 quid is a bit steep. My short test ride of the Torq impressed me though I finally bought a low powered but light bike powered by a Sram Sparc system. I definately work up less of a sweat with electric assistance, if you struggle with your commute maybe your fitness needs to improve, sorry to be brutal but 10 miles is a long haul if you are overweight even with a battery helping.

 

[aroncox]

Well I have to say 10 miles seems pretty easy on my Torq (when it's working). So is 10 miles quite a workout on a regular bike? That's my problem you see, I don't know uless I buy a regular bike just what the difference is. And pedalling only on the Torq is not the same as it weighs so much and has horrible gearings.

Sorry you are so fed up with your Torq, 250 quid is a bit steep. My short test ride of the Torq impressed me though I finally bought a low powered but light bike powered by a Sram Sparc system. I definately work up less of a sweat with electric assistance, if you struggle with your commute maybe your fitness needs to improve, sorry to be brutal but 10 miles is a long haul if you are overweight even with a battery helping.

 

[jac]

why dont you borrow a normal bike and try your journey especialy on a windy day thats when you notice real advantage

 

[aroncox]

I'd like to, but I don't have anyone I can borrow one from. Does anyone know if there is a big difference between light expensive bikes and cheaper ones? I know I see guys in lycra flying past me on skinny bikes, but I don't know how much is due if to their muscles or the bike.

why dont you borrow a normal bike and try your journey especialy on a windy day thats when you notice real advantage

 

[frank9755]

I'm the same age as you and have a similar length journey.

If your experience is like mine, on a normal bike you might cycle one a week or once a month, but on an electric you'll do it every day!

Cost to get your Torq working is £250. An NiMH battery is going to give you a couple of years plus of good service. If you can bring yourself to write off the money you wasted on the lithium batterey as the mistake, £250 is not such a high price to get you back to cycling every day! You would easily spend as much getting a decent non-electric to replace your Torq.

You could try negotiating with 50 Cycles on the £250. Tell them you are upset that they sold you something they knew at the time was not fit for purpose (we all know they knew this because we know that Flecc told them and supported it with compelling evidence!) and therefore they have not only a moral but also a legal obligation to do something for you. If nothing else, they might swap your Lithium charger for an NiMH one!

Frank

 

[aroncox]

Thanks Frank, I think you're right, I'm going to have to buy the new battery (not looking forward to telling the wife tonight!). I also have to buy two chargers, one for home and one for work, so it'll be £300! I'll try your idea of bargaining with them (not good at that kind of thing though), but since I already have two Lithium chargers, it would be nice to swap them for NiMH ones. I just hope that the NiMH lasts a good deal longer, and I have no more trouble with my bike (it's become a bit of a laughing stock at work rather than a 'Wow, I'd like one of those' kind of things).

I'm the same age as you and have a similar length journey.

If your experience is like mine, on a normal bike you might cycle one a week or once a month, but on an electric you'll do it every day!

Cost to get your Torq working is £250. An NiMH battery is going to give you a couple of years plus of good service. If you can bring yourself to write off the money you wasted on the lithium batterey as the mistake, £250 is not such a high price to get you back to cycling every day! You would easily spend as much getting a decent non-electric to replace your Torq.

You could try negotiating with 50 Cycles on the £250. Tell them you are upset that they sold you something they knew at the time was not fit for purpose (we all know they knew this because we know that Flecc told them and supported it with compelling evidence!) and therefore they have not only a moral but also a legal obligation to do something for you. If nothing else, they might swap your Lithium charger for an NiMH one!

Frank

 

[musicbooks]

A part of me agrees with your concern. I have raised the battery shelf-life issue before on this forum. There is at the heart of the argument a sense of frustration. We so want to use electric transport but in order to do so we have to buy into a false economy that claims we can save so much on bus tickets and/or petrol, only to have to fork out wads of dosh a few months down the line for a new battery. Even if the battery lasts a couple of years, it's still a substantial overhead, not to mention a significant increase in the size of our carbon footprint, and a painful, reluctant endorsement of our modern throwaway culture..
All the things we are trying to avoid by going electric in the first place.

I smell a conspiracy theory.. You know the one about the electric light bulb..?
Is the technology there to produce longlife / shelf-life batteries but the manufacturers won't produce them.. or are we really still in ther dark ages when it comes to energy cell technology?

 

[flecc]

We are in the dark ages, and the proof is that we still use what is essentially the first battery ever for starting our cars, lead acid designs going back to the earliest days of batteries. Battery designers have repeatedly promised the earth in the past with every new development, but have let us down in one way or another on every occasion.

However, NiMh is suited to electric bike use and removes all the worries about whether the battery will work or not. I used a Giant Lafree Twist with two NiMh batteries for four and a half years without problems. I recelled one at four years old with larger capacity cells to increase the range, and the other battery I gave to another forum member for use as a backup battery when he's on long journeys where he might run out. That's still going and heading towards five years old now.

That's why I'm confident you'd all be satisfied with NiMh. The eZee NiMh battery will probably have a slightly shorter life than those for two reasons, the more powerful motor and the fact that the charger doesn't have a discharge function, but I'm still confident of at least three years with mine, used in a tough very hilly area, and sometimes towing extreme loads.
.

 

[Charlie]

Hi,
If you're fit enough to consider a good normal bike, then 10 mile on fairly flat roads shouldn't really tax a Torq battery too much I would have thought, assuming you are still pedalling.

What's happening that makes a new battery needed?

Charlie.

 

[aroncox]

Yes, well that's a bigger argument. But from my point of view I'd love to live nearer work and therefore easily be able to cycle/walk to work. It would be good for the environment, I would save time etc, etc. Unfortunately it's impossible, I work in Central London and am currently living as close as I possibly can to work, and I have to rent to do that! I do think the powers that be should try to offer some kind of benefit to those that live close to where they work, perhaps a slightly reduced tax rate or something. I know it could lead to all kinds of cons, and wouldn't guarantee they weren't driving huge trucks to work but there has to be a way to reduce the amount of traffic on the road that isn't merely just penalizing people.

As for batteries, I assume there are some very clever people working on this, and it's obviously quite a difficult problem. Perhaps fuel cells will one day become viable, but wherever I have to use batteries (bike, laptop, MP3 player) I'm disappointed in how long they last! I did wonder when I saw the number of possible charge cycles on the battery just how long it would last, after all I was charging it twice a day 5 times a week!

A part of me agrees with your concern. I have raised the battery shelf-life issue before on this forum. There is at the heart of the argument a sense of frustration. We so want to use electric transport but in order to do so we have to buy into a false economy that claims we can save so much on bus tickets and/or petrol, only to have to fork out wads of dosh a few months down the line for a new battery. Even if the battery lasts a couple of years, it's still a substantial overhead, not to mention a significant increase in the size of our carbon footprint, and a painful, reluctant endorsement of our modern throwaway culture..
All the things we are trying to avoid by going electric in the first place.

I smell a conspiracy theory.. You know the one about the electric light bulb..?
Is the technology there to produce longlife / shelf-life batteries but the manufacturers won't produce them.. or are we really still in ther dark ages when it comes to energy cell technology?

 

[HarryB]

Hi,
If you're fit enough to consider a good normal bike, then 10 mile on fairly flat roads shouldn't really tax a Torq battery too much I would have thought, assuming you are still pedalling.

What's happening that makes a new battery needed?

Charlie.

There another thread all about this battery issue - 18 months is pretty good for a lithium so nothing wrong except that lithium batteries are not up to the job.

I am in a similar position as regards getting a push bike - a similar age as well (maybe a bit older). This is what got me thinking. After washing my Torq on Monday, it worked perfectly afterwards. Tuesday morning it refused to work - obvioulsy water ingress and I was faced with cycling to work (10 miles) without power. I thought I would be sweaty and late but in reality it took 5 minutes extra and I was no more sweaty than usual (nobody at work complained anyway). I think even using an electric bike you just get fit - especially if it is a Torq and left restricted. I too thought, why not buy a normal lightweight bike - it is a whole lot less hassle. However I do enjoy effortlessly overtaking almost all bicycles on the road and certainly being able to pull away quickly has a safety benefit, so for now I will stick with electric.

Let us know how you get on with the battery and chargers.

 

[fcurran]

Some points I feel may have been missed. Personally I travel 2.5 miles each way a day on a Powabyke 24 speed commuter with lithium SRP £1145.00 and plus factors for me are:

Electric vs Pedal Power

1/ Electric bikes are far quicker than normal bikes for the average person
2/ Arrive at work fresher
3/ More likely to use bike during wetter weather or on longer journeys.
4/ Far easier with motor on hills and against headwinds.
5/ I have had a long term knee problem and find cycling an electric bike far easier on the knees than a push bike.
6/ Electric bikes are safer as I travel at similar speeds to cars around Bath (which is only about 15mph anyway!) vs push bike where drivers are more likely to attempt to overtake dangerously because you are going too slow.


Electric bike vs Car

1/ Cheaper by far, personally if I drove to work, with parking, petrol, insurance, tax etc, I found the bike paid for itself after only 9 months.
2/ Quicker by far, 10 minutes vs 40 minutes by car
3/ Healthier
4/ I arrive at work in a better frame of mind having done some but not much pedaling and haven't been stuck in the notorious Bath traffic jams.
5/ I can park my bike outside the office vs having to spend 10 minutes finding a parking space then walking a further 5 minutes to the office.
6/ Cleaner for the environment.

Personally I would not be without my electric bike.

 

[aroncox]

I don't peddle so hard on the way to work to avoid getting sweaty, and I peddle as much as I can on the way home, I am pretty much always pedalling though. However in both directions I have it on full accelleration at all times (delimited).

I have no way of telling how close to flat the battery is, as flecc has already indicated the lights don't really mean much so I don;t know how much I flatten the battery on each trip, it does however take (at least) three hours or so to charge up each time.

Hi,
If you're fit enough to consider a good normal bike, then 10 mile on fairly flat roads shouldn't really tax a Torq battery too much I would have thought, assuming you are still pedalling.

What's happening that makes a new battery needed?

Charlie.

 

[aroncox]

You're right, there are lots of positive things to be said for electric bikes, when they're working. But I have had quite a few months in the past year (I wish I'd kept track of how many) where my bike wasn't working, and now on top of that I need to shell out £300 for a new battery and two chargers. It's a bit depressing. When my bike was working it was great, I loved it, it made work so much better, and I had more energy when I got home at night, but all that makes it extra depressing when it's not working

Some points I feel may have been missed. Personally I travel 2.5 miles each way a day on a Powabyke 24 speed commuter with lithium SRP £1145.00 and plus factors for me are:

Electric vs Pedal Power

1/ Electric bikes are far quicker than normal bikes for the average person
2/ Arrive at work fresher
3/ More likely to use bike during wetter weather or on longer journeys.
4/ Far easier with motor on hills and against headwinds.
5/ I have had a long term knee problem and find cycling an electric bike far easier on the knees than a push bike.
6/ Electric bikes are safer as I travel at similar speeds to cars around Bath (which is only about 15mph anyway!) vs push bike where drivers are more likely to attempt to overtake dangerously because you are going too slow.


Electric bike vs Car

1/ Cheaper by far, personally if I drove to work, with parking, petrol, insurance, tax etc, I found the bike paid for itself after only 9 months.
2/ Quicker by far, 10 minutes vs 40 minutes by car
3/ Healthier
4/ I arrive at work in a better frame of mind having done some but not much pedaling and haven't been stuck in the notorious Bath traffic jams.
5/ I can park my bike outside the office vs having to spend 10 minutes finding a parking space then walking a further 5 minutes to the office.
6/ Cleaner for the environment.

Personally I would not be without my electric bike.

 

[flecc]

After a lifetime of normal bikes, I agree with Frank of Powabyke that electric bikes are much better for utility purposes and commuting, and apart from one unfortunate immediate failure when one of three electric bikes was new, have had no trouble.

However, I sympathise with aroncox who has also suffered other problems with spokes breaking etc, and I think from memory his bike might have had to go back for a wheel rebuild. This is doubly irritating when the journeys are essential rather than pleasure based, and higher reliability through better quality control needs to be a priority now with manufacturers.
.

 

[fcurran]

All bikes will have problems at some stage in their life, electric bikes again will probably have more than most partly for the reason they have the extra electrics that a standard push bike won't have, but also because on average they are used to cover 10 times the distance that a normal would cover. (Quote Neil Gutherie, 2001 electric bikes survey, Leeds University).

You have been unfortunate with your bike, for which I sympathise, however the general reliability of electric bikes today compared to even just 3 years ago is far greater. Im sure all manufacturers are working on improving things further and as long as you stick with an electric bike from one of the main manufacturers that are always being mentioned on this site, then you will be fine.

 

[HarryB]

All bikes will have problems at some stage in their life, electric bikes again will probably have more than most partly for the reason they have the extra electrics that a standard push bike won't have, but also because on average they are used to cover 10 times the distance that a normal would cover. (Quote Neil Gutherie, 2001 electric bikes survey, Leeds University).

You have been unfortunate with your bike, for which I sympathise, however the general reliability of electric bikes today compared to even just 3 years ago is far greater. Im sure all manufacturers are working on improving things further and as long as you stick with an electric bike from one of the main manufacturers that are always being mentioned on this site, then you will be fine.

I just don't understand why they should be so unreliable. Compared to the complexity of a car they are incredibly simple. Yet each time I get into my car come rain, cold etc. it starts and drives without breaking down. Each year it gets a service and MOT and that is it. Compare that to my Torq which has had two major breakdowns - the last battery problem took weeks to cure with a trip back to 50 cycles. Water ingress is still a problem at the battery base and the battery meter. At least the cycle parts have been reliable although it has needed two new chains and a gear cable

 

[frank9755]

A large part of the answer is the experience curve! How many million cars have been made in the last 100+ years, and how many million lessons have been learned from all that accumulated experience?

The electric bike industry is in its infancy and has to go through its own learning curve to iron out these faults.

Frank

 

[flecc]

Yes, exactly as Frank says, plus the very exposed nature of an electric bike. Even a motorbike has very much better shelter for the electrics etc, sheltered behind the warm blast from a radiator or engine, under a tank or dualseat.

The nakedness of an e-bike mixing water and electrics will always have a potential for problems, though I agree more could be done to improve matters.

However, that's not easy when production is so small, meaning standard components often have to be used even though they aren't entirely suitable. This particularly applies with switches and connectors, where production runs of hundreds of thousands at least are necessary to justify design and tooling for special items.
.