Grenfell Tower

[oldtom]

This was the scene in London last night. Are all these people wrong to demonstrate their anger on the streets of the capital? Should they all wait till a year, or two, or ten, has passed before passing comment on this murderous government?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1592019870837920

With thanks to AAV,
Tom

 

[oldtom]

To all those good people who seek to protect Theresa May and her right-wing extremist government from any form of criticism by extolling such platitudes as 'This matter shouldn't be politicised / not the time' etc, please get real. That very political party and their media organs have advocated, supported and brought about the very means by which the Grenfell tragedy occurred, just like this by way of example:





And you might wish to remember which group received an 11% pay rise.....



Tom

 

[Georgew]

oldtom, this thread should be about the catastrophic failure of a solution to building insulation.
Politicising it is simply wrong.
wrong place, wrong time.

I think this is totally wrong.

To regard this as merely an engineering problem to be considered without any political dimensions is not only naive but profoundly mistaken.
To introduce politics at this very moment cannot be viewed as merely a question of bad taste and to reduce it to such is in itself grossly offensive. Whether you like it or not it is political and was so from the moment the responsible Council farmed the refurbishment contract out to an independent company in order to save money. It became political when in order to win the contract the company cut costs and a widely banned type of panel containing combustible material was used and no sprinkler system fitted. It became political when the Council which has a multi-million contingency fund, refused to listen to the tenants' group who told them that the they were in real danger from the shoddy and dangerous refurbishment.

I'm afraid that "bad taste" is not top of the agenda at the moment with those most closely involved with the tragedy and it certainly doesn't resonate with me. There are far more serious matters to deal with, among them would be the repression of a safety report on the dangers of these high blocks which had been handed to a Tory Minister some time ago but had never seen the light of day.

 

[Danidl]

I think they prefer to make sure of the data before releasing any of it, and frankly I don't blame them, given how unforgiving the media and public are.

A high proportion of these immigrant residents won't be on the electoral roll or even registered to doctors etc, and in London there's often illegals staying with them. In the end there will be a final count of the human remains, which will probably produce the only accurate figure.
.

.. a few hours after the fire , a member of the local council a councillor living adjacent to the tower block stated that 400 to 600 people lived in it. That is a variance of 30% . Now that was a reasonable comment for someone to make outside office hours, but it has not been revised, corrected or updated in the days that have followed.
Of course the actual number in the building will never be exactly known, people would be at parties , or on holidays elsewhere, but it would have been expected that a statement along the lines of . There were x registered as living there. .
I would have expected the authorities to have interviewed known survivors and ask them who were your neighbours, ?were they in or out etc?. This was basically a vertical village, and according to locals part of a vibrant community.
Like OT in his original post, I would agree with you,being careful with figures rather than sensational estimates for media consumption is preferable.

 

[Woosh]

To regard this as merely an engineering problem to be considered without any political dimensions is not only naive but profoundly mistaken.

We can all see the burnt cladding, so there is little doubt how the fire spreaded.
A sprinkler system would have saved lives but whose fault is this for not having one installed? the architects? the H&S regulations? or TM?
As far as looking for a political dimension in this tragedy, I much prefer waiting for the inquest before making/choosing one. Less chance of barking up the wrong tree.
What you express as political opinion looks like scapegoating to me at this moment in time.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

As I was the OP on this thread, I really don't need your advice as to how or what I should contribute to the story.

I have a dream that your house would burn down with you in it. I don't think I'm the only one. If it happens I will personally post an obituary in the Socialist Worker, in which I'll mention that your burning was Theresa May's fault.

 

[flecc]

I would have expected the authorities to have interviewed known survivors and ask them who were your neighbours, ?were they in or out etc?. This was basically a vertical village, and according to locals part of a vibrant community.

Only outsiders think London is a big city, it is in fact a large number of villages, almost all with vibrant communities, often ethnic based. But I think you have little concept of life in flats, especially in this sort of tower block.

With five flats on each floor, it's not uncommon for occupants of one to not know most or even any of the others, while having close relationships with some on other floors and in other local buildings. And with front doors in this sort of block often apart and even out of sight of each other, it's not necessarily known who is in or out at any time.

I'm London born and bred and have lived the last 50 plus years in flats and have friends in two tall blocks of the kind in question, so know the circumstances extremely well. My current flat is in a more individual building with six flats in each three floor section. Sitting here typing I have no idea if there's anyone else in the other five flats at the moment. I know the current residents by first name and we have friendly relations, but we live our own separate lives.

However, like so much of London the community is very mobile with constant changes in residents, two of the six flats in my section empty since Mark and Kate who I'd known for just eight weeks moved from one and Beth who I'd known for less than a year from another, both moving last week. When others move in it will be a while before I get a chance to introduce myself, but our relationship may just remain casual with little knowledge of each other's lives.

However, I do have many friendships, some decades long, with others in neighbouring buildings and throughout the estate, which is largely a very vibrant community with numerous organisations we've set up. But in the event of a disaster, I doubt I could give much useful data on who is where and whether they were present at any one moment in time, despite this being my fiftieth year in this location.
.

 

[oldtom]

This piece on the hugely unreliable BBC news web page certainly illustrates how this issue is undeniably political.

There is simply no escaping the fact that people, even people totally unconnected with those who have perished or those who now suffer as a result of the inferno, see this matter very clearly as a result of political choices.

blogs-the-papers-40310518

Tom

 

[tommie]

She's also busy sucking up to the horrific terrorist-backed DUP (the most extreme party in Westminster, who make the UKIP fruitcakes look like softy-moderates in comparison)

Care to back that statement up? Links please!
In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities

1. Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
2. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
3. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
4. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
5. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
6. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
7. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
8. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
9. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
10. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
11. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
12. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
13. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
14. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
15. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
16. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
17. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
18. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
19. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
20. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
21. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
22. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
23. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
24. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
25. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
26. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
27. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
28. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
29. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
30. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
31. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
32. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
33. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
34. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
35. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
36. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
37. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
38. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
39. Opposed shoot to kill.
40. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
41. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
42. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
43. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
44. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
45. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
46. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
47. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
48. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.

Quite something when you put it all down in one place…

 

[tommie]

While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences,

it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election

 

[flecc]

Care to back that statement up? Links please!
In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities

1. Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
2. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
3. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
4. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
5. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
6. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
7. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
8. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
9. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
10. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
11. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
12. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
13. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
14. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
15. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
16. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
17. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
18. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
19. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
20. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
21. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
22. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
23. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
24. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
25. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
26. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
27. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
28. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
29. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
30. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
31. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
32. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
33. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
34. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
35. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
36. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
37. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
38. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
39. Opposed shoot to kill.
40. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
41. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
42. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
43. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
44. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
45. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
46. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
47. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
48. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.

Quite something when you put it all down in one place…

I only have to look at number 48 regarding philosopher Ted Honderich to see how grossly biased your view of these events is.

Jeremy Corbyn is one of the good guys, the world needs many more respecters of humanity like him.
.

 

[soundwave]

 

[Georgew]

We can all see the burnt cladding, so there is little doubt how the fire spreaded.
A sprinkler system would have saved lives but whose fault is this for not having one installed? the architects? the H&S regulations? or TM?
As far as looking for a political dimension in this tragedy, I much prefer waiting for the inquest before making/choosing one. Less chance of barking up the wrong tree.
What you express as political opinion looks like scapegoating to me at this moment in time.

I can only assume that you've been living in a cave and have expressly ignored the post immediately before mine which shows that this Government's aim has long been to degrade the H&S regulations which help keep us safe in out beds.You are also clearly unaware of the circumstances surrounding this tragedy and your faith in some future inquiry/inquest in establishing the facts may be misplaced.

However here are some facts so feel free to argue these: The residents' action group sought legal aid to force KTCMO to improve safety in Grenfell Tower but could not afford this due to cuts in Legal Aid....a result of Tory legislation. All complaints were ignored and the Group issued a statement at the time which said
" “[we] firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders.”
90% of residents signed a petition for an investigation into KCTMO’s handling of safety concerns.
In 2009 after yet another fatal Tower block fire a Coroner's report recommended that sprinklers be fitted to all Tower blocks due for refurbishment. This was refused by Government Minister Brandon Lewis who said that he knew that these were effective but refused on the basis that enforcement would add to the"burden of regulations".

 

[Danidl]

Care to back that statement up? Links please!
In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities

1. Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
2. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
3. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
4. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
5. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
6. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
7. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
8. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
9. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
10. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
11. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
12. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
13. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
14. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
15. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
16. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
17. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
18. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
19. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
20. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
21. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
22. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
23. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
24. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
25. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
26. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
27. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
28. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
29. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
30. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
31. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
32. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
33. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
34. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
35. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
36. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
37. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
38. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
39. Opposed shoot to kill.
40. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
41. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
42. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
43. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
44. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
45. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
46. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
47. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
48. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.

Quite something when you put it all down in one place…

Tommie, the use of a word like "terrorist" is intended as a put down and to stifle debate. Virtually every" freedom fighter" anywhere in the world has been labelled a terrorist by an opposing view. It is the simplest of responses to make. Are the American service men and women controlling remotely controlled gun and missile platforms from the safety of bases in the US terrorists,? are the mossad agents who occasionally assinate terrorists,? are the Russian green men who went into a supposed free Ukraine Crimea, terrorist , are the north Korean infiltration agents in south Korea terrorist? Were the members of the French secret service who blew up a Greenpeace boat , killing a crew member, in Australia terrorist.? Were the "unionist supporters" who bombed Dublin and Monaghan, at the time of a critical vote on security, also terrorist?. Are the Spetnetz, the SAS, the Seals, and all the other special forces, who do their governments dirty work terrorists or patriots..?
.

 

[oldtom]

I don't think I need add anything to this video clip.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1479297055424759

Tom

 

[Danidl]

While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences,

it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election

... As you will see in my other response to you I do not always agree, but in this case I can . Political activists and opportunists are always ready to jump on a derail protest.
Case in point, I like many other Dubliners marched to the British Embassy on Stephens green on the day following the massacre of Irish people in the Bloody Sunday in Derry \ London Derry. It was a peaceful protest until a lorry load (actually a Bedford lorry )of trained provocativers arrived and within 10 minutes the scene became very ugly, with petrol bombs being thrown at the hapless guard on duty.
I immediately left, with the firm resolve never to accept anothers opinion on trust.
So I can fully accept that the understandable anger of the local community is being manipulated.
The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies.

 

[Georgew]

While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences,

it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election

Good heavens. You tell me this now?

If I had known that Tom was a lefty and also a rioter I'd never have supported his views...dear me no. I mean that's bad enough but now you say that the organiser of a Grenfell protest is a brown person and supports
Corbyn and was a suspected terrorist.

Holy Jasus....if he's also a member of the DUP I'm going to kill myself.

This country's gone to hell.

 

[Georgew]

...
The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies.

May God place a flower on your head......such innocence should not be allowed to go unrewarded.

 

[tommie]

Thats a silly argument Dan, going by that then you can say that both sides in WW1 and 2 were `terrorists`, maybe you`re purposely trying to muddy the waters?!
Now lets have your take on this example,
An IRA cell in Warrington blew to pieces two young innocent boys who had no idea what politics were, they were defenseless innocent young children.

Now are you going to tell me `Oh well it wasn`t an act of terrorism the IRA were `freedom fighters`??!! Freedom from what could justify that act?

and I don`t want to hear one of your long-winded diatribes that skirts around the issue

 

[Woosh]

However here are some facts so feel free to argue these

You seem to know what has happened and how it happened and who is to blame.
there are about 4,000 high rise buildings being used for housing in and around London alone.
If you were the housing minister or the head of H&S, would you guarantee that none will ever burn on your watch?