Grenfell Tower

[Georgew]

You seem to know what has happened and how it happened and who is to blame.
there are about 4,000 high rise buildings being used for housing in and around London alone.
If you were the housing minister or the head of H&S, would you guarantee that none will ever burn on your watch?

Just think...if you had bothered to find out you also would be informed.

As to your last remark...it's silly and really warrants no reply....however as a believer in self-improvement I would say that if I was really concerned with fire safety then I wouldn't do as Boris has done and have cut the London Fire Service.
"Boris’s cuts in 2014 saw the closure of 10 fire stations, the loss of 552 firefighters’ jobs and the removal of 27 engines. "
I wouldn't have relaxed the legislation concerning building regulations either I confess or abused those who objected to this.....but then that's just me. As the Guardian says.......

"It will take months, perhaps years, for the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster to conclude, but what is apparent is that the public and firefighters have been catastrophically let down. A fire like this should never have happened, a fire should not spread like this across the outside of a building and a fire in a high-rise building should be contained within the compartment of origin. There are many serious questions to ask, and the answers must not only be given but, crucially, action must be taken."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk

 

[Woosh]

there is really no need to be patronizing in this day and age of the internet.
most of the known facts are summarized in the wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire#Grenfell_Tower

Are you assuming that I post before googling?

 

[Danidl]

Thats a silly argument Dan, going by that then you can say that both sides in WW1 and 2 were `terrorists`, maybe you`re purposely trying to muddy the waters?!
Now lets have your take on this example,
An IRA cell in Warrington blew to pieces two young innocent boys who had no idea what politics were, they were defenseless innocent young children.

Now are you going to tell me `Oh well it wasn`t an act of terrorism the IRA were `freedom fighters`??!! Freedom from what could justify that act?

and I don`t want to hear one of your long-winded diatribes that skirts around the issue

.. Those murders were not justified . The shooting dead of the perpetrators of the London bridge attack was justified, there was direct threat to innocent life.

I don't think you are in a position to discuss the reasons for WW1, and I have no interest in seeking to enlighten you. Many historians would view WW2 as unfinished business from WW1, ... As a clue look to economics.

 

[Georgew]

there is really no need to be patronizing in this day and age of the internet.
most of the known facts are summarized in the wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire#Grenfell_Tower

Are you assuming that I post before googling?

Not at all....not at all...I'm not assuming anything at all as it's clear you hadn't read any of the press accounts or any of the many background reports before posting.

Nothing wrong with that of course...dear me no...but to condemn those who have as "politicising" the tragedy and of "bad taste" does invite repercussions..."patronising" though these may be. Being informed does have certain advantages when involved in debate.

 

[Woosh]

being informed usually involves self doubt and systematic scepticism while politicising presumes a number of precepts.
Until the inquest(s) are held, we don't even know how the fire was started leave alone circumstances leading to so many deaths.

 

[Georgew]

being informed usually involves self doubt and systematic scepticism while politicising presumes a number of precepts.
Until the inquest(s) are held, we don't even know how the fire was started leave alone other circumstances leading to so many deaths.

As a very old person I have oodles of self-doubt usually arising from my now imperfect control of my bladder and I'm riddled with scepticism...systematic or otherwise.
I find your faith in the integrity of the justice system touching but having viewed inquiries and inquests for nearly eighty years I'm unable to share this. It really doesn't matter how the fire was started...not a jot, what does matter was that it was not contained and spread. Again, there is already plenty of evidence that the panels used were a fire hazard and had been banned in many countries because of this (here Google is your friend). It does seem that the tenants themselves were only too aware of this and tried to take their complaints to law but unfortunately were unable to afford this.

 

[Danidl]

May God place a flower on your head......such innocence should not be allowed to go unrewarded.

.. the alternative is mob rule. The right way might be slower but it is surer. If one engages in street politics, it feeds into the narrative and the result is that the forces of law and order ( emphasis on order) are provided with the excuses for repression.

 

[Woosh]

find your faith in the integrity of the justice system touching but having viewed inquiries and inquests for nearly eighty years I'm unable to share this. It really doesn't matter how the fire was started...not a jot, what does matter was that it was not contained and spread. Again, there is already plenty of evidence that the panels used were a fire hazard and had been banned in many countries because of this (here Google is your friend). It does seem that the tenants themselves were only too aware of this and tried to take their complaints to law but unfortunately were unable to afford this.

it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding.
With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party.

 

[Georgew]

.. the alternative is mob rule. The right way might be slower but it is surer. If one engages in street politics, it feeds into the narrative and the result is that the forces of law and order ( emphasis on order) are provided with the excuses for repression.

Let heaven save me from such a false dichotomy....you should be ashamed.
Some might reflect that an overhaul of the whole system might be an answer rather than taking to the streets and throwing things. Now if I were an English person I might think that eliminating the class division permeating the justice system may offer a way forward...but then that's just me.
Anyway there is evidence that the State needs no excuse for repression as past events have shown.

 

[Georgew]

it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding.
With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party.

I'm afraid that you're still running to catch up but losing ground.
The Action group had already stated:

“It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders,”
Last year, the fire brigade served an enforcement notice to KCTMO for Adair Tower nearby and looking very similar to Grenfell.
"It criticised the organisation for a range of failures. It had failed to carry it a risk assessment, hadn’t properly introduced measures to prevent and protect from fire, wasn’t stopping the use of substances that could cause a fire, didn’t maintain proper exit routes, didn’t have a proper fire plan and had failed to ensure that the premises and emergency equipment stored there were kept in good working order."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-fire-grenfell-tower-cladding-kctmo-kensington-chelsea-sadiq-khan-a7790566.html

As to the Tories having clean hands....good luck with that.

 

[Danidl]

it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding.
With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party.

.. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets.
An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power.

 

[Georgew]

.. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets.
An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power.

Sigh............................

 

[oldtom]

The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies.

'Danidl', you continue to surprise me by some of your offerings. As an Irishman, (you), I would have thought that you would know better than to imagine that a British government might be amenable to due process in any forum.

Were the case otherwise, there would never have been any need for Irishmen and women to take up arms against the British occupiers of their land. Equally, those British settlers and their dependents in America would never have had to rise up against their former government and declare independence. We also witnessed in 1982, following the land grab of the Falklands, exactly how the British government prefers to deal with any insurrection. They dealt with the 1984-85 miners' strike and the 1919 'Black Friday' demonstration in Glasgow by the use of violence and, in the case of the Glasgow riot, by Churchill's deployment of tanks and troops on the streets of that city.

Sadly, the only thing a tory government understands is direct action - it is simply not possible for the common people to utilise the systems intended for dispute conciliation to their advantage. The reason for that quite simply is that the judiciary is a major plank of the establishment elite which also comprises the monarchy, aristocracy, the CofE, the media and the brainwashed working class who see themselves as middle class with a need to vote tory just like their bosses.

The system is bent and broken and the recent disparaging remarks directed towards the Scots with regard to having a further independence referendum illustrated once again the contempt with which the establishment and their tory political representatives hold the Scots. The same is true for NI and Gibraltar.

Having power is one thing; wielding absolute power is quite another as you well know but it is for that reason that people rise up and demonstrate against bad government. They are powerless to bring about change or improvement through any other means.

Tom

 

[the_killjoy]

It is all the talk about direct action being the only thing that tories understand is why labour lost the election. There are people who would rather demonstrate "not my government " than actually vote.

In spite of all the hype the young were not the most active voters.

 

[flecc]

In spite of all the hype the young were not the most active voters.

True, but they did have the largest increase in voting engagement, higher participation than ever before.

They only need to increase to the participation level of the over 40s and Labour will be in power.
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[Woosh]

.. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets.
An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power.

there is also an issue with the planning department. Such work needed to pass building inspection. The timber battens would not have passed building regs on a high rise building.
did the architects apply for planning consent?

 

[flecc]

By a weird coincidence, the day before this terrible fire a BBC Radio 4 program in the series "The Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry" was discussing the subject of fire.

As part of the program at 5 minutes 15 seconds there's a Building Research Establishment test in their Burns Hall of building cladding being set on fire, the subject and the test returned to at 10 minutes 58 seconds when there's a graphic description of burning cladding falling from the test building, just like the Grenfell event but broadcast the day before.

The whole 19 minute program is interesting, or you can just listen on the i-player at the two times I've indicated. Obviously there exists much prior awareness of the risks of burning cladding spreading fire up the outside of buildings:

Here's the link
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[Woosh]

we still need to know how the fire started and if it was accidental or not.

 

[Georgew]

we still need to know how the fire started and if it was accidental or not.

A tenant has already said that the fire started in his flat due to a faulty Fridge......though why you should feel this is important escapes me.
What is important is that the fire spread rapidly up through the outer cladding and it is thought that the composition of the cladding panels (filled with combustible material) and the gaps, which allowed an upward draft effect were responsible. I understand that this has been the case in tower blocks with similar outside cladding and it had been observed in testing procedures previously.

 

[flecc]

What is important is that the fire spread rapidly up through the outer cladding and it is thought that the composition of the cladding panels (filled with combustible material) and the gaps, which allowed an upward draft effect were responsible. I understand that this has been the case in tower blocks with similar outside cladding and it had been observed in testing procedures previously.

In addition the block apparently had Upvc plastic window frames, which can burn and quickly transfer the indoor fire out to the cladding. It's clear from the images that most of the window frames have been burnt out, something that could never happen with steel window frames.
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