News: Surging costs of NiMh batteries

[ITSPETEINIT]

Not a Li, a NiMH

Can I ask why you are buying a Li-on battery? Is it a replacement or in addition? Has your original battery died?

Actually I was on the point of ordering a new Sprint and wanted to know if there were NiMH available. So I looked at the Accessories/Batteries page just to get the answer - and I found this puzzling ambiguity about Lithium Batteries/Chargers.
But my First Lithium battery did die after 8 months/80 miles (it did not get a lot of use in the Winter). 50 Cycles were kind enough to replace it.
Mr. Ching was very sympathetic too.
Peter

 

[Ian]

I think I was lucky to get one of the last NiMh Torqs, apart from being my prefered chemistry it was £200 cheaper than the Li-Mg version.

I suppose 50cycles would consider me a Luddite if I asked for a NiMh Forza

 

[painter]

miles

You can change the speedo to miles if you want to Painter.

If you're not sure, it means removing the battery and replacing it to set it back to zero factory setting. Then a press on the reset button flips between km and miles. With that set, press the recessed grey button on the rear to change to the wheel size setting and complete the sequence.
.

Thankyou flecc its now miles + marathon plus size

 

[painter]

I am asking because I am keen to get an idea of the life of a Li-on battery. I am assuming when you say only get 15 miles you are running your Torq restricted and the range has halved in 8 months. How many miles do you do a day? I do 20 miles a day (during the working week) and have done since august. I am on the second battery so far, the first failed under warranty.

The torq is restricted i do 25 to30+miles no hills as sutch plenty leg work top the charge up soon as i get home ready for next ride two top ups a day now

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Batteries and Chargers a package?

It says battery and charger set, so maybe those have been supplied that way, possibly boxed as such for the new bikes.

I read it as just the separate batteries out of stock, but that's usually just a temporary situation. Li-ion batteries deteriorate from the moment they are manufactured, so can't be kept in stock for protracted periods. Hence ordering frequently in small quantities, bringing the risk of momentary out of stock situations. I've seen several of these happen, and view it as good that they are careful in that way rather than supplying stock that's already lost a chunk of it's life.

I'm sure a call to 50cycles will elicit an estimate of when they will be arriving.
.

I took delivery of a new Sprint yesterday.
I ewnquired, when I ordered it (a week ago), if there were NiMH batteries available, elicited the response that they had none in stock.
When the bike was delivered the charger was in its own box (in bubble wrap).
The battery (Li-ion) had been fitted to the bike, so I was deprived of the nice little cardboard box for transporting it as a spare. So it seems they are not a 'wrapped package'.
Moreover, the battery must have been checked on the bike at some point because the keys were in the lock and the battery was turned "ON".
There was something else rather curious: the inside of the slide by which the battery is fitted to the carrier (where all the little labels are and the battery number) was quite dusty. This suggests that the battery had been in stock somewhere for some time and 'out of it's box'.
I am awaiting 50Cycles reply concerning some other deficiencies as well.
Peter
I am concerned about how much time deterioration it has suffered - I don't suppose it was kept charged up from time to time.

Peter

 

[Ian]

Peter, 50cycles do charge batteries up. last time I visited the warehouse there were a number of batteries on charge on the warehouse floor, which would explain the dust. I assume they were being charged prior to delivery, but it's possible they were just being "maintained".

 

[HarryB]

Li-on battery life

So from all the available info from users - the most I can expect from the Li-on battery is a year at the most (they way I use it) that is £250 a year. I do regret not going for the NiMH option and saving the £100 but that really is the benefit of hindsight - I didn't have this forum at the time. Anyway about 8.3p a mile for the battery alone, not exactly cheap.

 

[Ian]

So from all the available info from users - the most I can expect from the Li-on battery is a year at the most (they way I use it) that is £250 a year. I do regret not going for the NiMH option and saving the £100 but that really is the benefit of hindsight - I didn't have this forum at the time. Anyway about 8.3p a mile for the battery alone, not exactly cheap.

Harry, you should be able to considerably increase the life of your battery by looking after it properly, something many users fail to do. There are many hints and tips about batteries elsewhere on the forum but the main point with lithium is to charge it at every opportunity and avoid complete discharges. If you do have to store it out of use, do so in a cool place and periodically top it up.

 

[HarryB]

Thanks Ian,

Yes I know all the advice having followed the forum, but I have 10 mile journey to work and 10 miles back. I charge when I get to work and then when I get home. I think the problem is that 10 miles is pretty close to the maximum range with all the traffic lights in London you are constantly pulling away and using lots of juice. On the way home it is up hill for the last 2 miles and the battery is pretty well exhausted by the time it is put on charge - I know this is not the best way to treat a Li-on but I have no choice. I do try and conserve all the battery as much as possible by putting a lot of my own effort in, but in the end it is an ebike. I think if there was more in reserve (and I am thinking of the Wisper 13.4Ah battery) then it would put less strain on the battery and last longer.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Comforting

Peter, 50cycles do charge batteries up. last time I visited the warehouse there were a number of batteries on charge on the warehouse floor, which would explain the dust. I assume they were being charged prior to delivery, but it's possible they were just being "maintained".

Thanks for that Ian.
Lithium batteries are a sensitive issue with me - indeed there are many owners who have concerns about them. The velvet glove treatment is not very practical when using the bike for all eventualities.
There is much discussion about how much range there is in a Lithium. The consensus - well, there isn't one really. Whatever it is at maximum (deep discharge) is of little use. The most 'sensible' range would be about 80% of max: not 20 - 30 miles (I got 28 miles on my first deep discharge) but 16 - 24 miles, declining with age/use.
I've had five Lithium batteries at various times (still got 4) and none of the others were dusty on delivery.
Peter

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Wisper 905Se

Hi Painter

I completely agree with Flecc and Ian, 50 cycles have had great experience in the market and sell good bikes.

However may I suggest you have a go on the 905Se before deciding. If you can do come to the New Forest Ebike Rally and have a go on both, make your own mind up. I am not saying the Works 905Se will be better but it will be different. And we are here to stay!!

Best regards David

 

[Jim]

Hi Painter

We do sell the lithium battery without the charger at a cost of £250, I don't know why the website isn't letting you buy the battery on it's own, must be a glitch. Give us a call to order one.

Jim
50 cycles

 

[prState]

Li-ion batteries deteriorate from the moment they are manufactured, so can't be kept in stock for protracted periods. Hence ordering frequently in small quantities, bringing the risk of momentary out of stock situations. I've seen several of these happen, and view it as good that they are careful in that way rather than supplying stock that's already lost a chunk of it's life..

I remembered this post, and looked it up to ask a couple things.

1. Do we have manufacturing dates, and even so, how do you determine if they are accurate, (as they are just a stamp anyway).

2. As I spent some time in the U.S. military, I can tell you that just because something is said to be out of stock, doesn't mean it is not sitting on a shelf somewhere else, and in fact could already be manufactured two years earlier.

Not only that, when people aren't following proper procedures, sometimes new stock gets shipped out first, and old stock sits. Then, later, old stock still gets shipped out (money lost otherwise).

(heh, I'm not trying to indict the us military, but that stuff has happened -- and of course there is a lot of civilian contracting work, so it's not just government failure)


note: also, I'm considering this sort of thing seems likely with the stories coming out of the Chinese market.

second note: ah, I know I'm being over suspicious possibly, but if they did have a lot of old stock on hand somewhere, they might parcel it out to avoid the appearence of selling old stock (once again, money lost)

 

[flecc]

As you say prState, all these things are commonplace with all manners of goods. Even the highly organised supermarkets get rotations out of order, 12 days to end date milk on one visit, three days later, much earlier and very short dated milk out for sale.

One thing that reassures me is when a supplier regularly runs out of Li-ion stock. My bike supplier has regularly been out of stock for a few days for as long as they've been supplying Li-ion, so that is a clear indication that they are sensibly only ordering just enough at a time. An added benefit is that the batteries can be bought online and are shown as out of stock when that happens. That's how I know about the regularity of the out of stock occurrence with them, it just takes a web visit to check. At the moment they are just out of stock on the NiMh, but the Li-ion were out of stock just recently.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Testing a Torq

Having spent all of my life living close to Charnwood forest I can certainly vouch for it's hills. One of the more challenging test routes would to be to leave Loughborough in a SW direction on Nanpantan road (B5350/B591) where on leaving the built up area one is faced with a continuous 2km 10% climb after which a very undulating circular route can be followed back to Nanpantan and down the hill back to Loughborough.

Short but steep hills can be had in the village of Mountsorrel 4km SE of Loughborough, easy to reach mainly on dedicated cycle paths alongside the A6.
Mountsorrel is built on a granite hill and is home to the largest granite quarry in Europe, whilst it has no mountains the lanes up to Castle Hill and around the quarries have some short but vicious hills.

That sounds like an ideal testing ground for a Torq. 2km at 10%
If 50 Cycles had recommended that I tried that venue when I went to all the trouble to motor up to Loughborough from Shaftesbury (320 miles return) I would not have bought the Torq would have got a Sprint 7 instead as I have now).
It would have made no difference to the aggravation I got from the Chopper by accepting the "15 mph maximum speed on motor alone" posted on their website.
Thank you for the information Ian - perhaps other prospective purchasers will be able to avail themselves of this ideal testing ground, when they read this posting, if they read and study the Forum.
Would it not be a fantastic idea if 50 Cycles, so confident that nearly EVERYONE are "ecstatic"with their Torqs, published this ideal location on their website CONSPICUOUSLY so that all would know of it. Even perhaps a little map of 'how to get there' (like you so kindly provided Ian).
Regards
Peter

 

[DBCohen]

It is for these reasons and all that has befallen me that I advise anyone who deals with a SOLE DISTRIBUTORSHIP AND MONOPOLIST to thoroughly vet the Management of the Company and its financial position before reaching a decision to buy the product.

Peter

Can I make a suggestion for this topic to be closed?

It has veered completely away from the original subject, and I am not sure that an emotional back and forth between customer and supplier is appropriate in a public forum.

That's just my opinion, by the way. Of course, it is the moderator's decision ultimately what is acceptable on here. But I myself find it not conducive with the overall tone and spirit of the rest of the site.

Pete, you clearly have had a series of issues, and I can understand your frustration and anger based on your previous comments - but you are unlikely to get any sort of resolution in public, no?

50Cycles, similarly it does you no favours debating points with a customer in public. Many of us have had our own experiences of your customer service, and I think for most that is a positive one. However, you are giving the distinct impression with Pete that you are only prepared to talk to him on here - which I am sure is not the impression you would like to give.

I would have thought that direct discussion between yourselves - perhaps by telephone rather than in email - would be a more positive way to get a successful resolution.

Just my tuppence.

 

[rsscott]

The customer service discussion between Pete and 50Cycles has been moved to the 50Cycles clinic where hopefully that matter can be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.

Please continue with the original topic of this thread.

 

[flecc]

Phew! Thanks Russ!
.