Should I consider alterntaives to the stepthru Kalkhoff Agattu/Raleigh Dover

[tillson]

Why is it is Spain where presumably theses bike originate price is nearer £1100 and by the time the get to the UK and had a name change the price has inflated to £1650:

Because we live on Treasure Island. Also known as Rip Off Britain in some quarters.

 

[10mph]

Yesterday I tracked down a dealer in a nearby town who had the 3E CityLight MkII (rear hub motor drive) at an attractive £729. I had a short test ride to check how controllable the bike was. I also checked how it climbed an 8% hill outside the shop. My observations:

1. I felt the 18 inch - 46cm frame was about 2 inches smaller than ideal for me, but with the seat up to enable me to just touch the ground it was certainly very ridable.
2. At low speed I did seem to wobble slightly. This might get better with practice. I had no problems with wobbles at ordinary riding speeds, but I do also need something I can balance very well at low speeds without wobbles. Perhaps the C of G is higher than the Kalkhoff Agattu which I found to be very easy to control wihout wobbles.
3. The power control seemed very simple with the power cutting smoothly in shortly after starting pedalling, alternatively an immediate takeoff without pedalling was available using the twist throttle. I assume to eek out battery use one has to avoid throttle use, and probably also switch off the pedal assist when the going is easy.
4. I pedalled up the hill comfortably using the power assist. I think this 8% was rather typical of hills I encounter from time to time. I wonder whether it will get me up the very occasional 20% hill, or will I have to walk?
5. I dont suppose I that I would be able to get my target 40 mile range. The road test at http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/6718-3e-citylight-mk-ii-throttle-only-road-test.html?highlight=citylight#post85356 indicates that more than 17 miles should be easily achievable without pedalling, so if I do the equivalent of about 18 miles worth of pedalling without going above 10 mph, perhaps I could achieve 35 miles on routes without major hills.
6. I would imagine the bike might wear out if I did a large mileage. I noticed that the chain guard was some very flimsy plastic, which doubtless would become weak with time and get broken. Presumably there are other inferior quality components hence the lowish price. However, I have just been adding up my bike mileage over 2010 and I find that over the year I averaged one outing per month of between 10 and 20 miles. Total annual mileage was only about 200 miles. If I kept the ebike use down to this level, presumably I would get a several years of use without wearing anything out. The guarantee period is 2 years and presumably this normally covers 1000s of miles. The 3E website says the Li-Ion battery does 2000 charging cycles so should last me several 10s of years, certainly until I finally hangup my cycling clips.

At £729 it is nearly £1000 cheaper than the Agattu, and I could even get a second battery for £299 if I really had to do a 40 mile ride carrying it as a spare on the pannier. I am expecting to have do do a 30 mile ride without major hills in April in the company of two strong riders 15 years my junior, and how to keep up with them is occupying my thoughts at present.

 

[NRG]

Take that battery cycle life with the largest bag of salt you can!

 

[jlanger]

I would stick to the khalkhoff Agattu step through model.
I bought one in the middle of 2008 and have clocked up 8000 miles.
I am only 5ft.6 1/2'' and I bought the small model step through because it was the only model they had had at the time.I was a little reluctant to buy the small model at the time but in actual fact it turned out to be a good choice,because I often have to stop at lights with my 11 miles journey across London and put my foot down on the road.

I changed my tyres 6000 miles ago to marathon scwalbe plus and I have not had a single puncture since then,this was after having 4 punctures on the original tyres.

E mail me if you want more information

Julian Langer

 

[10mph]

NRG: Yes I understand 2000 charging cycles might be an exaggeration, but if I only do say 10 to 20 outings and chargings per year, would it be unreasonable to expect say 200 charging cycles of a Li ion battery without appreciable deterioration in capacity?

jlanger: Thanks for the comment - I have pm'd you. My mind is pretty much made up on an Agattu, if only I can justify the expense for the comparitatively infrequent use I shall make of it. It is to reduce capital cost I am looking at cheaper options.

 

[NRG]

NRG: Yes I understand 2000 charging cycles might be an exaggeration, but if I only do say 10 to 20 outings and chargings per year, would it be unreasonable to expect say 200 charging cycles of a Li ion battery without appreciable deterioration in capacity?

Li-ion will degrade wether you use it or not starting almost right from day 1 (there is a small capacity increase initially). 2000 cycles is not realistic.

 

[tillson]

NRG: Yes I understand 2000 charging cycles might be an exaggeration, but if I only do say 10 to 20 outings and chargings per year, would it be unreasonable to expect say 200 charging cycles of a Li ion battery without appreciable deterioration in capacity?

If you make 10 to 20 outings / charge cycles per year you will not achieve 200 charge cycles. That would equate to a battery life of 10 to 20 years. As NRG states, the ageing factor will reduce the battery performance rather than charge cycles under this particular set of circumstances.

It would be wise to approach the purchase of you bike with the view that you will need to replace the battery after two years (Lithium based). That way, you won't be disappointed by the hype and over promising which goes on.

These battery shortcomings are pretty general and not just specific to any particular brand.

 

[brucehawsker]

I agree. We guarantee for two years and suggest budgetting on the £360 new battery or so mid way through year 3.

 

[brucehawsker]

I agree. We guarantee for two years and suggest budgetting on the £360 new battery or so mid way through year 3.

 

[Orraman]

10mph,
You may wish to consider the Monark.
It has a Panasonic motor with all the advantages that offers and at £ 1300 the lowest price in the UK and is lighter than the Agattu.
It is very similar to the Gitane that I bought in 2008 that has given every satisfaction.

The big thing for me was that the frame has a normal bottom bracket with the Panasonic motor and therefore the cranks mounted underneath the bracket.
From discussions that I had with the importer of the Monark at that time I believe that the same arrangement was on the Monark.
With such a low pedal position one has to be careful about pedalling through corners but the big advantage is being able to put ones feet on the ground while seated.

The Nexus 3 speed hub fitted to both bikes is perfectly adequate for the electric motor, there is no local hill that I can't climb in comfort but the top gear is a smidgen less than that on the 7 & 8 speed hubs. The advantage of more gears is that the rider can select a gear that suits his preferred cadence and this and the higher top ratio does provide a small improvement in travel times, if you want that. For leisurely riding 3 gears are perfectly adequate and yes I have a 7 speed model, I can't resist a bargan.

A to B magazine has a very positive review in the May 2008 issue number 67.

Dave

 

[10mph]

NRG, tilson, and brucehawsker:
Li-ion shelf life
Thanks for pointing this out. I have now looked up Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and I see it says that the deterioration is much less if stored in a refrigerator while not being used,

A Standard (Cobalt) Li-Ion cell that is full most of the time at 25 °C (77 °F) irreversibly loses approximately 20% capacity per year. Poor ventilation may increase temperatures, further shortening battery life. Loss rates vary by temperature: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, and 15%, respectively. In contrast, the calendar life of LiFePO4 cells is not affected by being kept at a high state of charge​

So for my unusual use of my bike, say 10 to 20 times per year with typically two weeks between each outing, I should be storing the baterry in my fridge, or perhaps in the freezer if sub zero temperatures have no adverse effects.
Also if I charge up fully after use and then discharge by 50% (into a properly chosen resistive load for a calculated time) it sounds as if I can multiply the shelf life by another factor of 3. I am now looking 10 years to get 20% deterioration in capacity, In that time I would have say 200 outings and the battery cost per outing would be under £2. Which I am quite prepared to pay. I claim out of pocket expenses when I do my riding which is otherwise a an unpaid "volunteer" activity. In fact my "customers" would very readily cover costs of several £10s per outing. So for my unusual, non-daily pattern of use I dont think battery replacement costs are going to be too much of a concern, but it would be nice to make it last many years.

Orraman:
Thanks for the tip off about the Monark, it appears to be available from OnBike of Kidderminster, so that reinforces the need to make a trip there to see it. However I note the frame size is small, 45cm (18ins) which is not ideal, and I almost certainly will need two batteries or a bigger battery for my longer rides.

50cycles:
Scott, thanks for the tip, I would certainly be prepared to visit your Richmond shop to try the Agattu C3 and see if I can get up the hills. I note it has a 1:2 high assistance option which sounds good provided I can provide the 33% to keep me moving on the steepest hills. What steepness of hills do you have for a trial around Richmond? I like the option of bigger frame sizes.

 

[eddieo]

this is very mysterious...why are you so adament you will only use the bike so infrequently? and why go to the expense if not going to use one......

Ours where bought primarily for motorhome holidays, I now use mine all the time, it is my main transport.

You need to get into your head around the fact that batteries age/deterioate if used a lot or not? so 2-3 years tops is an average life

 

[10mph]

this is very mysterious...why are you so adament you will only use the bike so infrequently? and why go to the expense if not going to use one......

Follow the link I gave earlier in this thread about the mechanism which I use (http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/7380-should-i-consider-alterntaives-stepthru-kalkhoff-agattu-raleigh-dover-2.html#post93111)
I intend to use an electric bike only for this application, hence only 10-20 trips per year. I need the electric assitance to achieve range and hills.

I intend to keep my push bike for once per week training on a 7 mile route with a hill (but not in winter). I also intend to continue to walk, not ride, to the nearby town: 2 miles return. The city centre at about 7 mile distance would be well in range and not too bad a route, but I would be a bit worried about leaving an expensive bike locked up there.

From my short test rides and from the stories on this forum, I realise there is a good chance I shall enjoy a new bike so much I might want to ride for pleasure. I am resolving to resist this. Time will tell if I really do keep my useage down.

 

[tillson]

I didn't know that courses were measured to such a high degree of accuracy.

 

[Xcytronex]

So for my unusual use of my bike, say 10 to 20 times per year with typically two weeks between each outing, I should be storing the baterry in my fridge, or perhaps in the freezer if sub zero temperatures have no adverse effects.

If you are using the bike once every few weeks I would leave the battery on the bike .Refridgeration is really only suitable for long term storage---freezing is not advisable. By the way I don't think your usage is that unusual - once or twice a fortnight + the solid milage you'll be covering when riding - will put you you on par with many ebikers.

 

[NRG]

I refer you all to Flecc's post in this thread, he puts it far better than I could!

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/7427-battery-fridge.html

10mph you will be better off hiring a moped / electric bike or using a set of lead acid batteries to power the bike. . Or maybe you could hook up with David @ Wisper or another manufacturer and see if they will lend you a bike for each run for a bit of free promotion and marketing in return.

 

[10mph]

As a newby asking basic questions and for advice before buying a bike, I must say how civil, helpful, and intelligent I have found members of this forum. Thank you for treating my odd requirements with patience. NRG has in some senses just hit the jackpot, and I will deal with that below.

First, tilson: Yes I measure road running race courses. The requirement for worst case errors is one part in one thousand, under ideal conditions with no wobbling and good surfaces I can get repeatability nearly 10 times more accurate than that: about 1 to 2 metres over 10km. (As a side note, GPS is about ten times worse than the bike, even in the hands of a careful measurer.)

Xcytronex: So that prompts me to ask if all the guys who have an outing once a fortnight find their li-ion batteries have noticeably reduced range after say two years?

NRG:

10mph you will be better off hiring a moped / electric bike or using a set of lead acid batteries to power the bike. Or maybe you could hook up with David @ Wisper or another manufacturer and see if they will lend you a bike for each run for a bit of free promotion and marketing in return.​

You must be clairvoyant - my mind has already been running in this direction.

LEAD ACID BATTERIES - I had wondered, if I got a bike which is only good for 20 miles with the supplied Li-ion battery, whether for the occasional long measurement ride I could use 2 12v 18AH golf buggy lead acids in the bike panniers weight about 10kg, cost about £50, life about 10 years. When I do these long measurement rides I often arrange to be accompanied by race organiser staff in motor vehicles so they could carry the lead acids while I start using the bike's Li-ion, then when this is flat we transfer the lead acids to the panniers. In fact the range is just limited by the number of additional lead acid sets that are carried in the support car! This reminds me of the picture I saw in the book, Electric Bicycles by Henshaw and Peace which shows two or three lead acids being used on a tandem in the early C20.

PROMOTION/MARKETING DEAL Spot-on. This has been going through my head over the last two days. I had been inclined to quietly mention this to main dealers when I visit them to see if there is any interest, but now you,NRG have had the same idea, I may as well go public...
I have been invited to measure the London Marathon course for 2011, in the company of two world top measurers who are much younger/fitter than myself. I wont be able to keep up without an electric bike. As far as I can discover no measurer in the world has ever used an electric bike for measurement. (Motor bikes have been tried but they are not as good as push bikes - cars are terrible). So the possible deal goes like this. I find a supplier who has a suitable long range bike (35 miles ie 26 miles for the marathon plus 5 miles before and 5 miles after messing around doing calibrations.) I visit the dealer for some test rides with my distance recording mechanism, which slips on the front wheel between the fork and the hub. An hour or two is plenty for a test over a much shorter distance which will show if the measurement with the electric bike (with my mechanism fitted) is fully up to the precsion obtainable with a push bike. I then arrange to borrow/hire the bike for about 48 hours in April for the London Marathon Measurement. The actual measurement ride is done at night with escort vehicles for protection of the riders. If the distance recorded by the two top measurers on push bikes agrees with mine on the electric bike, as of course would be expected, it will be a World First for a new application of electric bikes. OK, the marketing possibilities to other elderly measurers may be modest, but surely association with a high profile happening like the London Marathon measurement would be offer promotion opportunities to any bike dealer.

 

[NRG]

10mph I like the cut of your jib! Although the use of bold type face could be reduced a bit I would think there is a great opportunity for you to team up with a mainstream manufacturer and vice versa, let us know how you get on.

 

[overlander]

Sounds ideal, as it does seem that you will only need it for the measurements. Sure we can't temp you, come on you know you want one for leisure use