Total newbie looking to buy an eBike, want some advice on a model!

Karliah

Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2023
44
7
It's throttle that only operates up to 4mph maximum, for use when walking the bike up any very steep hills you cannot climb, or to help you away from a standstill, aka Start Assist.
.
Walk assist works for up to 6mph if I remember well. It is used when you want to walk, but you are not really keen on pushing your bike (up hill for example)
Right.... That seems pretty useless then for what I want, unless I am missing something, it will only propel me up to 6mph?

Cadence didn't mean the higher amp rating made it illegal. He meant that the different controller allowed an independent fully operational throttle setting for all speeds up to 15.5 mph, which is illegal.
.
Right, now I'm really confused, is electrical assistance without pedaling at all illegal?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444
UK Legal Full Throttle Electric Bikes
Each of our Traditional, Wayfarer (hub-drive) and Tailwind e-bikes are now available with a full throttle option that will power the bikes up to 15.5mph without pedalling. As these bikes are currently certified to order, please expect an extended lead time of 2-8 weeks. As well as making our bikes safer and more easily controlled at low speeds, Wisper full throttle electric bicycles make cycling even more inclusive than ordinary eBikes, enabling those that need a little extra help when discovering, or returning to the joys and freedom cycling offers.

If you would like to order a Wisper Full Throttle Electric Bike, please be sure to select the ‘Full Throttle’ option on the product page when specifying your new Wisper. Wisper Full Throttle Electric Bikes are fully road legal and certified (L1e) in the UK*

* L1e bikes are only recognised in the UK. It is the user’s responsibility to ensure the bike is legal before using the bike outside the UK.

For more information about our full-throttle electric bike options, please see full details here

 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Right.... That seems pretty useless then for what I want, unless I am missing something, it will only propel me up to 6mph?



Right, now I'm really confused, is electrical assistance without pedaling at all illegal?
Not 6mph, it's 6kph in the EU which is 4 mph here.

Yes, these are EAPCs, standing for Electric Assist Pedal Cycles. They are not very low powered motor cycles. I repeat what I've posted before, these are NOT e-bikes (electric bikes), there is no such thing in law.

It is a widely ignored law in Britain but is still then breaking the law.

There is a British concession to allow full throttles, but only by taking it though Single Vehicle approval at an official testing station, costing £55, to classify it as class 250LPM, meaning Low Powered Moped. The DfT says that for legal purposes it will regard these as still being EAPCs.

But if you are converting an ordinary bike by adding a motor, that has a loophole allowing full throttle. So, if you go the kit route you have no worries about a throttle.

All very complicated in typical British fashion.
.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Woosh

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444

has same motor and batt as my bike.

pros
its cheap if you can get it under 1k.
comes with a dongle.
motors are bomb proof even with a dongle i cant kill one.
motor can be fully serviced and rebuilt but should be good for 10-15 thousand miles.
you can upgrade the display to kiox so can use the maps app ect.
my original batt still worked b4 i sent it off.

cons
new batts are 633
new smart batts wont work with older motors
the wheels fork and group set is as cheap as it gets

there is a recell service but its not cheap around 500 quid and it can go wrong bms bricks its self and bin job. :mad:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karliah

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Be aware that these Bosch powered bikes have no throttle and technically cannot have one added. So they always require pedal input to get any assistance.
.
 

Karliah

Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2023
44
7
Not 6mph, it's 6kph in the EU which is 4 mph here.

Yes, these are EAPCs, standing for Electric Assist Pedal Cycles. They are not very low powered motor cycles. I repeat what I've posted before, these are NOT e-bikes (electric bikes), there is no such thing in law.

It is a widely ignored law in Britain but is still then breaking the law.

There is a British concession to allow full throttles, but only by taking it though Single Vehicle approval at an official testing station, costing £55, to classify it as class 250LPM, meaning Low Powered Moped. The DfT says that for legal purposes it will regard these as still being EAPCs.

But if you are converting an ordinary bike by adding a motor, that has a loophole allowing full throttle. So, if you go the kit route you have no worries about a throttle.

All very complicated in typical British fashion.
.
Yes... Very complicated indeed, well I was almost sold on this one


However now if it can only send me 4mph (Correct?) Then it is useless for my purpose, although I cannot see anywhere in the specifications that it says that, so how would I know when shopping for kits that its walk assist only? Sorry if its a stupid question I'm a bit lost.

So when @Cadence mentioned that replacing the controller on the 250w for the 350w made it illegal, you said its because the law says power only when pedaling, and this allows a full throttle up to 15.5MPH, but I thought you just said that there is a loophole with conversion kits that allow twist and go (or thumb throttles?) and they don't require type approval, wouldn't this apply here or am I missing something extremely obvious?

On a side note, is there a noticeable difference in difficulty to pedal without battery assistance in a front vs rear motor?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444
Be aware that these Bosch powered bikes have no throttle and technically cannot have one added. So they always require pedal input to get any assistance.
.
i take it you have never ridden one but it dont take much rpm to get you shifting along faster than anything with a throttle going 15mph.

i can put a throttle on it ill just rip out the controller bms and display and shove 50a up its ass :p

might get some custom motor mounts for bafangs next year :D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Yes... Very complicated indeed, well I was almost sold on this one


However now if it can only send me 4mph (Correct?) Then it is useless for my purpose, although I cannot see anywhere in the specifications that it says that, so how would I know when shopping for kits that its walk assist only? Sorry if its a stupid question I'm a bit lost.
No, it's not a stupid question, the spec says:

"6km/h traction with holding Down Button."

So that's walk assist, your only throttle, so no good for you.

So when @Cadence mentioned that replacing the controller on the 250w for the 350w made it illegal, you said its because the law says power only when pedaling, and this allows a full throttle up to 15.5MPH, but I thought you just said that there is a loophole with conversion kits that allow twist and go (or thumb throttles?) and they don't require type approval, wouldn't this apply here or am I missing something extremely obvious?
I didn't know why Cadence was proposing, and as you see that can make a big difference. If he is going the kit route with a pre-existing used bicycle, he's ok. But if he's buying a new bicycle and a motor to convert it, technically he's not. We have to be so careful not to give wrong advice.

On a side note, is there a noticeable difference in difficulty to pedal without battery assistance in a front vs rear motor?
No, both are the same from a pedalling point of view, since the motors you are looking at have internal freewheels meaning no added drag when unpowered.
.
 

Cadence

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 23, 2023
260
200
Yes... Very complicated indeed, well I was almost sold on this one


However now if it can only send me 4mph (Correct?) Then it is useless for my purpose, although I cannot see anywhere in the specifications that it says that, so how would I know when shopping for kits that its walk assist only? Sorry if its a stupid question I'm a bit lost.
Ok, for clarity I checked the specs. of the 250w rear hub kit on YosePower's .com EU website after I bought it and in the notes there it states that the max speed of the throttle is 6kmH. This relates to the thumb throttle. Please note that this is in addition to the "hold down minus button" which also gives the same "walk assist"!

E-Bike Conversion Kit 36V 250W 26"/27.5"/ 28"(700C) Rear Motor Kit for (yosepower.com)

There seems to be more information (and user feedback) on the EU website than the UK one.
I suggest you email Yose for specific details about whichever kit you might be interested in. As I said before, I have no knowledge of their front hub kits that you have linked to. For all I know the throttle settings may be different (but I doubt it).
You say "it can only send me 4mph (Correct?)". The throttle only (no pedaling) will be limited to 4-6mph, but assistance while pedalling without using the throttle will be up to the legal limit (15.5mph)
It's perhaps worth mentioning that many people are happy not to have a throttle fitted at all - I just happen to find one useful.
 
Last edited:

Karliah

Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2023
44
7
No, it's not a stupid question, the spec says:

"6km/h traction with holding Down Button."

So that's walk assist, your only throttle, so no good for you.



I didn't know why Cadence was proposing, and as you see that can make a big difference. If he is going the kit route with a pre-existing used bicycle, he's ok. But if he's buying a new bicycle and a motor to convert it, technically he's not. We have to be so careful not to give wrong advice.



No, both are the same from a pedalling point of view, since the motors you are looking at have internal freewheels meaning no added drag when unpowered.
.
Haha right, so its a technicality basically - New bike and New twist and go throttle conversion = Illegal and needs type approval, Used Bike and New twist and go throttle coversion = legal and exempt from type approval, got it.

So you could just buy a new bike, ride it on the road once and convert it and its techically now legal? How stupid and complicated, but if its intended to stop new shops from selling twist & go brand new then that makes sense.

A question about the batteries - Are all Bike batteries interchangeable or do some have proprietary connectors?

If for example I wanted to buy this kit


And pair it with


Would that work?

Another question, is thumb throttle better than twist & go? I would have thought twist would be a bit more sensitive if going over terrain it could make you twist more and speed up, or is that something that does not happen?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: flecc

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
A question about the batteries - Are all Bike batteries interchangeable or do some have proprietary connectors?

If for example I wanted to buy this kit


And pair it with


Would that work?
Probably, but I hope you wouldn't buy that useless, overpowered direct drive motor.

When controllers and batteries both have simple two wire connections, positive and negative, they work ok.

But some more sophisticated systems have multi wire connections which only work when they communicate as designed, sometimes referred to as CanBus.

So caveat emptor.

Another question, is thumb throttle better than twist & go? I would have thought twist would be a bit more sensitive if going over terrain it could make you twist more and speed up, or is that something that does not happen?
Personal preference. Twist throttles can be jiggly over rough surfaces, but I find thumb throttles just as bad. I prefer a half twistgrip throttle, inner half twists to apply power, the outer half is stationary handgrip giving a stationary reference when both halves are gripped together:

 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444
this will spin your head out but would you believe it if i said the biggest haibike top end bike dealer in the uk sell legal bikes with all the certs yet also sells dongles fits them to the bikes so not road legal and will honor the 2 year motor warranty when no other dealer can do this.

my bike was from ebike shop but as it was 2nd hand no warranty and means i cant even buy parts for my bike as never bought it direct from them with only 160 miles on it.

and they win the best dealer award every year :rolleyes:


so they can sell non road legal bikes honor the warranty and $hit on every other dealer because. they cant or wont do it and will void any warranty if they find a dongle or one has been used.

that batt you posted will work with that motor but the batt must be able to supply the controller with cont amps that it needs to pull so max 30a discharge batt and 25a controller should be fine set up like that and get you over 30mph.

id go with a thumb throttle as both are really cheap and the twist ones brake more easy esp the super cheep ones even for normal bikes it just what you prefer as both are cheap to replace.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Karliah

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444



and im still not dead :D
 

Karliah

Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2023
44
7
Probably, but I hope you wouldn't buy that useless, overpowered direct drive motor.

When controllers and batteries both have simple two wire connections, positive and negative, they work ok.

But some more sophisticated systems have multi wire connections which only work when they communicate as designed, sometimes referred to as CanBus.

So caveat emptor.



Personal preference. Twist throttles can be jiggly over rough surfaces, but I find thumb throttles just as bad. I prefer a half twistgrip throttle, inner half twists to apply power, the outer half is stationary handgrip giving a stationary reference when both halves are gripped together:

Right, thanks for that, will definitely keep that in mind - And no, wasn't intending on buying that, just linked it as an example!

Main thing now is to look for a simple 250W kit, Undecided on front or rear and pair it with the YOSE Power battery.

@Cadence said he had paired the 350W controller into the 250W kit, however when I go on the 350W kits here


It is still saying limited to 6km/h (I assume that's the walk assist)

So with that controller i am stuck at 6km/h and would have to buy a separate controller to get any higher?

Pricing on these kits is excellent for me and you get support, any ideas on 250W kits that will allow me to get to 15.5 without pedaling? I will then pair it with a battery from Yosepower and that should get me going.

Unsure where to start, is there a guide anywhere or is it better to just ask you guys for recommendations?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,745
6,444

just get that or a motor out of a washing machine :D


its like a bbs hd on a toys r us bike of road at 30A :oops:
 

Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
2,004
887
Plymouth
My Yose kit was delivered with a throttle assisting up to 15.5mph. I guess they sell many different kits. I don't see a reason why somebody would want to install a throttle for walk assist only. It doesn't make any sense and would be very uncomfortable to walk and hold throttle down.
Throttle speed can be set in options on some LCD displays.

Yose have live chat. Best to ask, but keep in mind people on chat are not very competent (one I was talking to wasn't for sure)

I suggest you buy kit with battery included. Some kits have separate controller and some have controller integrated in battery holder (my preferred choice).
 
Last edited:

Chainmale

Pedelecer
May 13, 2020
60
58
Hi all,

My health is quite bad so I would want the comfort of knowing I can get back without pedaling much of that makes sense.
Is the requirement to be not turning the pedals or not actually providing effort from the pedals? With a hub motor with cadence sensor you can always "ghost pedal" turning the pedals without putting any pressure on and letting the motor do all the work at whatever assist level you have set.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woosh

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Unsure where to start, is there a guide anywhere or is it better to just ask you guys for recommendations?
Yes, ask for recommendations from those who kit build like Az above. As he says, I'd prefer to get the whole package from one supplier with UK support who can guide you knowledgably, like Woosh I mentioned before. It might cost slightly more but I'd say the benefits make that worthwhile.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
I don't see a reason why somebody would want to install a throttle for walk assist only.
For some it's the start assistance they need, just that extra push to get them going, then they're ok from 4mph upwards with the assisted pedalling.
.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Az.