What's the best 250 watt...

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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At my place in France I,m on base of a 1245 m hill ( 4000 ft ish) There is a firetrack leading to top.
How long is it? That would help us calculate Watts / km.

The only accurate way to know how many Watts your motor is providing is with a Watt meter. Many of us have those and my Watt meter shows over 250 W for my hub motor. I have seen readings over 540 W when I wasn't fit, now I am fit and I top out around 480 because I have turned down the Amps my controller can deliver to 11 Amps and it peaks at just over 12 Amps.

12 Amps x 41.5 volts (battery hot off charger) = 498 Watts. I turned down the Amps to increase range and because I need less assistance climbing than I used to. My average speed climbing is now close to cut off at 25 km/h and I would guess the average Watt reading would be around 350 W. On the flat I doubt that the average power provided would be much over 75 Watts (the power of an average light bulb). From a guestimate I am providing about 120 W when riding.

Besides the controller the BMS in the battery has to provide the number of Amps the controller wants to draw at a given moment. My Li-ion battery is rated for 2C or 20.8 Amps (3C peak) and my LiPoly battery 10C or 100 Amps, so 12 Amps is well within the capacity of the batteries.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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So how come riding up an extremely steep hill , pressing on pedals way above the pressure that would give max torque I still only use power from battery at the rate of 268 w/h ???
Triggering pressure in yam to produce its max torque is around 28 lbs. (21 ftlbs torque at crank) when on its highest power setting. My weight is 225lbs, so a pedal loading of 28lbs is quite low. In other words I,d be getting max torque from motor quite easily.(would be different for lighter riders)
Going up Neulos ( its a bit smaller than "Ben Nevis) my highest battery usage has been 27% in half an hours pedaling up a difficult at least 1 in 4 section. The meter is to max throughout. If that is not utilising max available from bike what do I have to do to access it ??? Try it yourselves.! If motor / controller could use / supply power at 20a you could flatten battery in 33 minutes. ( in reality it would be dead in 30. Simple fact is you can not. I,ve got the hill in my backyard to try it, have done so and battery does not go flat. Mine used about 116 wh.( on steepest section, total is 390 ish..ie battery flat)
The motor says 250 w continuous. The law says 250w continuous. My calculations are giving 250 from battery drain( actually a max of 268)
Simple matter is folk on here believe the 600w argument to justify breaking rules. The maths simply does not add up for motor to be consuming more than 250 w..
I defy anybody to go out on a legal 250 w pedelec and flatten a 400wh battery in under 40 mins. If controller could supply 20a it would be easy. You just need a big hill..
Somebody asked distance. Round trip is 23 miles..the last half uses 1% of battery !!
First half used 98%. Time 1hr 55.( to top) 400wh battery. ( height gain 1245 -142 metres, near enough 1100 metres)
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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You aren't listening: the only way to know how much power a motor is producing is with a Watt meter. My Watt meter says that my motor is producing 480 Watts peak. It also gives Vm, Ap, Wh etc. It is a measuring instrument measuring the flow of electricity from the battery to the controller, it isn't making these numbers up...

If we don't know the distance we don't know how many Watts you are using / km. I am guessing that you are young and strong and producing many Watts yourself to help the motor.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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if the Yamaha motor is the same as the bosch its 350w anyway ;)
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Thanks for compliment. My hearing is fine tho. The problem is in the reading..
Look I can only tell you what I,ve done on bike. I ain't young ( 58) and couldn,t dream of doing ride I,ve mentioned on ordinary mtb. I,ve had a tkr (right) from years of cycling and at 105 kg I,m hardly built for cycling any more.
If what you are saying is correct ( 450w plus from motor) what do folk have to do to access it. If peddaling up Ben Nevis doesn't what does ???
Ps I,d be interested to know how you fit ammeter/watt meter on bike under load. ( seriously not having a go)
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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no dealer has the software to change the motors power settings.

a dongle only lifts the speed limit it dont change the power settings.
 

anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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Thanks "someone" just did the math and you are using 10 Watts / mile.

Up a small mountain that means you are a very strong rider and it is normal that you are only asking for 250 Watts.

I am wearing street clothes and asking the motor for a little more help so as not to get sweaty and use a little more.

All you have to do to see more Watts being used is to ease up on the pedalling a bit and let the motor do more work. Simples!
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Thanks "someone" just did the math and you are using 10 Watts / mile.

Up a small mountain that means you are a very strong rider and it is normal that you are only asking for 250 Watts.

I am wearing street clothes and asking the motor for a little more help so as not to get sweaty and use a little more.

All you have to do to see more Watts being used is to ease up on the pedalling a bit and let the motor do more work. Simples!
Not sure I could seriously..the 10w a mile is including return.Which is free.Imprtant figure is going up the hill. So obviously double..but so what ?? ( watt?)
Still means bike took me up the hill ( its more than a hill, its size of Ben Nevis) in under 2 hrs using under 400 wh..still think if bike were capable of utilising 20a it would have done so on hardest section. It didn't.
How can a 400 wh battery sustain a very hard ride for 2 hrs if motor is capable of consuming 720 w per hour ??? Like I said the maths does not work. I can't imagine doing a harder/ steeper ride ...Ps I,m not that fit..just heavy..

Folk thinking their motors can run at 720w should be able to flatten 400wh batteries in 40 mins. Has anyone done so.??
 

anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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Nope I dropped the return trip from my calculation because it is downhill and you shouldn't be using a Watt (I don't). So I measured over 18.5 km and 116 wh was that correct?

It is kind of difficult to hook a Watt meter into a Bosch or Panasonic system compared to just plugging it in before the controller on a kit bike. I am sure someone has done it somewhere then we would have the interesting numbers like peak Amps available.

Read some threads over on ES to get an idea how quickly a motor can drain a battery. Here we are more about getting maximum range from our batteries but I guess some of the off road boys and girls have numbers.

On road my 10.4 Ah li-ion battery has done 72 km that is 5.4 W/km (8.57 W/m) in the summer with me pedalling hard. Right now I am about 6.85-7.5 W/km: colder temperatures, more clothing, not pedalling as hard. That means max range is 50 ish km.
 

Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
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As I said , I have a watt meter, and I have used it to measure power, and I can confirm that a 20a controller will pull 20a out if the battery and chuck it at the motor.

You can seriously (or frivolously) doubt this information, but it's true.

I've checked many controllers, with many motors. Mostly the peak amps is as stated on the controller.

The exceptions are when it's more current than stated, because I was careless and splashed a bit of solder on the shunt. Woops.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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So these figures been quoted are not actually for my Yamaha crank drive ???
Yes , I do agree its happening that many "nominal" 250w kit bikes are usinng 20 a...
I strongly suspect mine is using over 250 w in highest setting when under 15 mph and pedaling hard but from experience this week I stand firmly by what I,m saying. It can not possibly be much over 250w taking into account my weight,where I went and amount of battery power consumed.
I,m new to ebikes but not mtb. I know hard climbs and for 30 minutes on mentioned climb bike was giving its most.( if it wasn't not sure how I,d get it to) Over that half hour ( in high setting,with me doing as little as poss) bike used around 27% Yes I know meter is only a guide but had controller been using anything near 20a I,d have used way more than 27%. ( ie 20a would consume 360wh in the 30 mins ie 95% ish)
Perhaps your kit bikes are way more powerful ???
 

anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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I'm with Alan...
 
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So these figures been quoted are not actually for my Yamaha crank drive ???
Yes , I do agree its happening that many "nominal" 250w kit bikes are usinng 20 a...
I strongly suspect mine is using over 250 w in highest setting when under 15 mph and pedaling hard but from experience this week I stand firmly by what I,m saying. It can not possibly be much over 250w taking into account my weight,where I went and amount of battery power consumed.
I,m new to ebikes but not mtb. I know hard climbs and for 30 minutes on mentioned climb bike was giving its most.( if it wasn't not sure how I,d get it to) Over that half hour ( in high setting,with me doing as little as poss) bike used around 27% Yes I know meter is only a guide but had controller been using anything near 20a I,d have used way more than 27%. ( ie 20a would consume 360wh in the 30 mins ie 95% ish)
Perhaps your kit bikes are way more powerful ???
There's no magic formula in any ebike. It's very simple. However much power the motor helps you up a hill, it all comes from the battery. The more help you get, the faster the battery goes down. If your battery doesn't go down very fast, then you're not getting much help from it. Obviously, a big battery will last longer than a small one.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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There's no magic formula in any ebike. It's very simple. However much power the motor helps you up a hill, it all comes from the battery. The more help you get, the faster the battery goes down. If your battery doesn't go down very fast, then you're not getting much help from it. Obviously, a big battery will last longer than a small one.
Absolutely agree with that.. Well said..

Kiwi
You quoted a read out of 530w on your bike.
Exactly what were you doing with it at time ? And
a) Could bike remain in that condition long ?
b) Could rider maintain what he/she is doing for situation to continue ?
I suspect answer to both is no.

Let me explain....
My cd unit is torque activated. It requires a resistive torque from bike not wanting to move and a motive torque from rider at pedals. If latter is greatest bike chips in.???
Now my bike is quoted as max poss torque at crank of 80nm. That's near enough 60ft/lbs.Bike on its highest setting gives 280% aid. Bosch gives 300%. In other words in high setting for every ft/lb rider puts in bike puts 3 to a max of 60....
Look at that other way. To get that 60 rider has to put in 20. That's easy when stood but as cadence increases it becomes increasingly difficult..( a crank torque of 20 ft/lb equates to a pedal force of 26lb ( pedal being around 3/4 of a foot)

The most important power limiter on pedelec is not the electrical controller its the nut that connects the handle bars to the saddle..the rider..

Yes for a brief instance a 20a controller may supply 20a but system is designed for this to quickly subside. Even climbing hills.

( strictly speaking we should call torque pound foot, ft/lb is actually a unit of work, but I wont open another can of worms)

And just as an asside..even in highest setting ( assuming a cadence if only 60) rider is putting in 220w. ( power in hp is pound feet x rpm / 5232.) to get bike to give its max.. Not an impossible amount by any means but bike will soon be over its 15.5 mph limit on road and hitting rocks too quickly off road..so rider slows down , probably changes down to reduce resistive torque and hence lowers his input to under 20 pound feet. Bike settles to well under 250w..

The controller rarely gives 20a because its rarely told to do so..its why throttles/ hand controls are banned.


And , slightly different but ...in many situation current consumed does not correlate with power produced..start up current on your fridge will be around 10x its steady state. ( 250w motor starting under load can draw 10a at 240v. Does not make it a 2.5 kw motor..its still only producing 250w in your fridge)
 
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danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
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The controller rarely gives 20a because its rarely told to do so..its why throttles/ hand controls are banned.
Simple cadence sensors do not require heavy exertion from the rider to get maximum assist. Throttles are banned due to favoured interests of motorcycle and scooter manufacturers by the EU administration. No more, no less.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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I give up. !!!
If I put hard pressure on pedals meter goes higher, gentle pressure moves it slightly . No pressure nothing. That's graduated.
 
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danielrlee

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 27, 2012
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I give up. !!!
If I put hard pressure on pedals meter goes higher, gentle pressure moves it slightly . No pressure nothing. That's graduated.
I wasn't saying that you have a cadence sensor, just that your statement about throttles is incorrect.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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I wasn't saying that you have a cadence sensor, just that your statement about throttles is incorrect.
Fair comment.
But if there was a lever( its not a throttle really) that could override your torque/ sensor on a legal pedelec it would be easy to access this illusive 600 w plus everybody is talking about having..so bike would not be a pedelec on two counts.( if made post 2016) a) its got the lever. b) its capable of producing continuously over the 250w limit.
And anybody who insists either Bosch or Yam can give more than 250w continuous please ( in all seriousness) tell me how to access it !!