yesterday i had 1 ebike now i have 4!

[thelarkbox]

This morning i owned 1 ebike a kit conversion, its great but has some shortcomings since my donor/base cycle is rigid without any suspension and is fitted only with V brakes.

Last night i was browsing ebay and spotted an auction with 20 minutes left. For an early? model Whoosh Santana

I read and reread the description, it listed faults including a broken spoke, lots of scratches and dings to the paintwork, and a battery that only half charges and runs out quick.
the pictures revealed a little rust on the forks but a clean disk on the front.
its reported to work ok but the battery is bad, and comes with a key to the battery lock its charge cable and purchase documents so seems pretty legit.

but zero bids and a very reasonable starting bid.. 10 minutes left.. My kinda bike, with the features mine lacks.. check the ad and its local collection only but its my style of bike and no one has bid on it So i type a quick message to the seller asking if a courier collection would be ok and could they help pack it ready, and time was running out . so I placed a bid..

and won, but would the seller sell at that price? me not collecting in person is a valid get out and one i would totally understand..

We emailed back and forth this evening, I was concerned about presuming they would pack or at least appearing to presume. they were concerned about me not seeing the actual condition of the bike before handing over cash.. so far everyone is cool I offered an extra £20 via paypal for the packing duty and sent a 3 minute video from utube packing a mountain bike. the courier will 1st deliver a box and bubblewrap and later collect the bike and deliver.. all for £70 so Starting bid price +£90 .. im optimistic


Earlier Today!!

I dropped in to visit a pal who spends half the week fishing and is rarely home so I was glad to catch him, My #1 topic for conversation was my ebike conversion and the difference it made since i now relied on 2 wheel pedal power for transport, But i hadnt even gotten a sentence out before he had responded with "ebikes you want a couple? our lad buys a new one whenever anything goes wrong" and points me at a tarp in the back yard I peek under and indeed 2 mountain bikes a LOT of mud an what looks like 3 hub motors all not quite together.. The son is happy to be rid but dismisses the bikes as complete crap and dead? And Dad says one of them will drop them off at the weekend.

So tonight It looks like i now have 4 ebikes.. 1 solid conversion, and 1 good looking prospect hopefully needing minor service and a new battery eventually. and a couple of mud caked mystery boxes..

 

[Benjahmin]

Well good luck and let us know how you get on.
It's a pity Jimmy at e bike batteries is no longer operational, but I'm sure Woosh will have a new battery for the Santana.
It depends what the others turn out to be. Just another example of our disposable society. May your resurections go well

 

[Woosh]

It's a pity Jimmy at e bike batteries is no longer operational, but I'm sure Woosh will have a new battery for the Santana.

we keep batteries for the Santana. Rack batteries can also be easily replaced with a different model as the controller is connected to the battery with just red and black wires via 4mm bullet crimps.

 

[saneagle]

Well good luck and let us know how you get on.
It's a pity Jimmy at e bike batteries is no longer operational, but I'm sure Woosh will have a new battery for the Santana.
It depends what the others turn out to be. Just another example of our disposable society. May your resurections go well

These sort of bikes don't have special batteries. You can use any battery that you can find on Amazon or Ebay to work them as long as it's an ebike battery of the right voltage. They connect with two wires. You only have to find a battery that you can physically fit to your bike. You can get one with different capacity if you want too. You can get Ebay and Amazon rack batteries with the rack, so it'll work as a replacement for any other rack battery.

It's mainly niche brand more expensive bikes that require special batteries. For those, it's worth considering a rebuild, but for common or garden Chinese bikes, it's not worth it because a rebuild is a lot more expensive than buying a complete new battery.

 

[thelarkbox]

Thanks all, Im not making any plans as yet beyond giving it a good clean and dowsing all the rusty nuts n bolts with penetrating oil and letting that get to work for a while..

Then give it a 'service' check brakes gears ... and address known probs like the broken spokes

My only real concern is the fork rust,

Regarding the battery, yeah my assumption is to expect nothing from the battery anything else is a happy bonus.. this one however has the seller calling it bad so little hope there, my kit battery can provide juice to testing etc and once everything is up and verified a-ok then i will consioder options such as use my current battery an or invest in a new one..


As for the mountain bikes, IM pretty sure they will provide a good source of donor screws and nuts and probably little else beyond the exercise involved in dropping them off at the tip in 4 months time
Then again? who knows

Ive only recently cleared out my garage and cleared a few sqm of space, guess thats all gone now too.

 

[thelarkbox]

Unfortunately the Whoosh Santana seller backed off packing the bike for a courier, I dint press it as it was pretty cool of him to consider it in the first place so 1 down ;(

...And.. 2 new arrivals at the bodge it garage this oh so HOT afternoon.. ..



Both with signs of rust all over, including cables, The yellow bike appears to be functional as a bike, brakes crank chain although rusty rotates. the headset is misted up and cracked and on disturbing the controller box (hanging loose) water gushed out.. the most worrying sign so far is the rusted state of the flexguard spring surrounding the power/control flex into the hub.

A Battery arrived with the bikes??? 13ah 36vhailong tube style which appears to match the slide mounts on both bikes. a self test lit 1red 3xgreen leds. one a lil dimmer than the others)?

The red bikes rear hub motor looks quite large, and there appears to be the remnants of a warning label/sticker on one of the crank arms, the control system is detached from the bike as is the hub motor its controller is not wet thankfully and is labelled 48v DC 28a.. Again the headset is cracked and broken.

As for now both bikes are stored in the garage and the wet control box is open and is airing and drying out. too dark in the garage to check the pcb..

And all the tyres have air in em

My initial focus will be on the yellow bike, testing and validating the motor and controller. i have a kt 22a controller and lcd10h headset I can use to test

then if working i can replace all the cables and lube everything up that needs it,

The big hub motor is a project in itself with quite a few broken spokes that need replacing would a direct drive 250w motor appear this sort of size? or is it more likely to be something like 500w+@48v/28a Its solid axle with flex leaving the hub at the axle side and not its hollow centre as in my kit hub motor. No markings on the hub motor at all that i can see just a single white dot sticker.

Also something is nagging at me that it would be a bad idea to try running a 48v controller/motor with a 36v battery??

When i start doing things i will post pics, hope its as fun following as it will be pottering..

 

[saneagle]

Unfortunately the Whoosh Santana seller backed off packing the bike for a courier, I dint press it as it was pretty cool of him to consider it in the first place so 1 down ;(

...And.. 2 new arrivals at the bodge it garage this oh so HOT afternoon.. ..

View attachment 53822View attachment 53823

Both with signs of rust all over, including cables, The yellow bike appears to be functional as a bike, brakes crank chain although rusty rotates. the headset is misted up and cracked and on disturbing the controller box (hanging loose) water gushed out.. the most worrying sign so far is the rusted state of the flexguard spring surrounding the power/control flex into the hub.

A Battery arrived with the bikes??? 13ah 36vhailong tube style which appears to match the slide mounts on both bikes. a self test lit 1red 3xgreen leds. one a lil dimmer than the others)?

The red bikes rear hub motor looks quite large, and there appears to be the remnants of a warning label/sticker on one of the crank arms, the control system is detached from the bike as is the hub motor its controller is not wet thankfully and is labelled 48v DC 28a.. Again the headset is cracked and broken.

As for now both bikes are stored in the garage and the wet control box is open and is airing and drying out. too dark in the garage to check the pcb..

And all the tyres have air in em

My initial focus will be on the yellow bike, testing and validating the motor and controller. i have a kt 22a controller and lcd10h headset I can use to test

then if working i can replace all the cables and lube everything up that needs it,

The big hub motor is a project in itself with quite a few broken spokes that need replacing would a direct drive 250w motor appear this sort of size? or is it more likely to be something like 500w+@48v/28a Its solid axle with flex leaving the hub at the axle side and not its hollow centre as in my kit hub motor. No markings on the hub motor at all that i can see just a single white dot sticker.

Also something is nagging at me that it would be a bad idea to try running a 48v controller/motor with a 36v battery??

When i start doing things i will post pics, hope its as fun following as it will be pottering..

You can't run a 48v controller with a 36v battery unless it's specifically a dual voltage controller, which will be written on the label.

 

[thelarkbox]

You can't run a 48v controller with a 36v battery unless it's specifically a dual voltage controller, which will be written on the label.

Thank you, just the confirmation i needed to stop a catastrophic experiment..

Google suggests that a 48v 250w direct drive hub motor could be similar in size to the hub motor pictured with the red/orange bike 6-7" diameter? while the 28a power rating of its matched controller does indicate a higher rated motor perhaps?

Now it so happens that i do posses a KT Square wave controller 36/48v 22a and lcd headset
would it be ok to power with 36-42v to power the 48v motor for a simple spin up test with no added load.
If the motor runs or can be fixed then the half dozen or so spokes that are bust are worth fixing and I can consider investing in a 48v battery pack. If the motor is a 'Dodo' then i can forget it and move on..

 

[thelarkbox]

Yellow Bike motor RIP, i think at least.

opening up and inspecting the controller housing was a pita due to it being held together with a messy wrap of gaffer tape.

Although i had 'cracked' the case to drain and air, moisture was still present, so i stood it in the sun while i brewed a cuppa.

the controller label has some info:
voltage: 36vdc
current: 15a
Brakes: low level
booster : 1;5
Speed set 1.1-4.2vdual mode
but its very small.. 10 cm x 2 cm x 5 cm? guestimate

And inside it appears bone dry and a casual inspection revealed no obvious blow outs burn scars or popped caps.

However the 'Phase' wires from the controller to the wheel Are blown/burnt, well blue and yellow are, green was initially covered in a messy wrap of way too much gaffer tape to reveal a knot? a knot which maintains continuity!.



snipping the burn connector sleeves to gain access to the wire/connector and disconnecting the controller i used a meter set to the 200k ohm range to test the resistance of each coil, yellow/blue, green/blue, green/yellow, all zero'd out. retested with the meter set to 200ohm range (minimum setting) and got readings of 0.6ohm for each coil

Google isnt helping me find the expected values? so?? but i was expecting more ? perhaps 10-100ohm range? but not sub ohm.

I guess the next step is to validate the continuity of the flex feeding the power to the motor so removing and disassembly..

what is the expected coil resistance of a 250w hub motor?

 

[lenny]

 

[Nealh]

One generally will see about 9k ohms on the phase v- side and on the v+ an ascending value or simply 1 , as long as one sees each set of three results are very similar to each other then they should be ok. Typically 7K - 14K is a good range to see.

 

[thelarkbox]

Thanks @lenny, No where close to testing the unknown battery beyond the press of its self test button. However thanks for reminding me to check it out thoroughly first, any testing with a battery i may mention will be carried out with my known good fuse protected battery

One generally will see about 9k ohms on the phase v- side and on the v+ an ascending value or simply 1 , as long as one sees each set of three results are very similar to each other then they should be ok. Typically 7K - 14K is a good range to see.

Cheers, this is my first time to do with anything bdlc hands on.

And just to be clear I just used the probes to touch a blue/yellow, blue/green, green/yellow combo in turn without switching the polarity of the probes.

a consistent 0.6 ohm when measured, some combinations when first connected cause the cheap meter display to flash a higher value initially too fast to read before 0.6 is displayed. though making contact via finger pinching in the sun was sweaty..

Its the low value AND consistency that bothers me?

I have subsequently removed the wheel, this revealed a julet? style plug/socket 9pin, connecting to the hub motor. on separation and visual inspection the plug and socket look clean and corrosion free.

I was very tempted to just clamp the wheel in a vice and hook up the 9pin connector to a 'spare' kt controller headset and pas sensor., and known good battery.. But have resisted so far. visions of escaping magic smoke..

the freewheel hub took a 4ft lever to get off so am about to open up and check
the feed flex for unseen twisting, though the frame looked clean and anchoring looked intact during disassembly.

while prima facia covered in rust the wheel axle where covered by the bike frame appears to have remained greased and 'clean'

Going in...

 

[saneagle]

Thank you, just the confirmation i needed to stop a catastrophic experiment..

Google suggests that a 48v 250w direct drive hub motor could be similar in size to the hub motor pictured with the red/orange bike 6-7" diameter? while the 28a power rating of its matched controller does indicate a higher rated motor perhaps?

Now it so happens that i do posses a KT Square wave controller 36/48v 22a and lcd headset
would it be ok to power with 36-42v to power the 48v motor for a simple spin up test with no added load.
If the motor runs or can be fixed then the half dozen or so spokes that are bust are worth fixing and I can consider investing in a 48v battery pack. If the motor is a 'Dodo' then i can forget it and move on..

Yes, you can use that controller, but don't first connect the 36v battery when it's fully charged, otherwise the LCD might think it's a run down 48v one. you have to make first connection unambiguous as far as voltage is concerned. I'd make it below 38v, like around 36v should be OK.

Yellow Bike motor RIP, i think at least.

opening up and inspecting the controller housing was a pita due to it being held together with a messy wrap of gaffer tape.

Although i had 'cracked' the case to drain and air, moisture was still present, so i stood it in the sun while i brewed a cuppa.

the controller label has some info:
voltage: 36vdc
current: 15a
Brakes: low level
booster : 1;5
Speed set 1.1-4.2vdual mode
but its very small.. 10 cm x 2 cm x 5 cm? guestimate

And inside it appears bone dry and a casual inspection revealed no obvious blow outs burn scars or popped caps.

However the 'Phase' wires from the controller to the wheel Are blown/burnt, well blue and yellow are, green was initially covered in a messy wrap of way too much gaffer tape to reveal a knot? a knot which maintains continuity!.

View attachment 53852

snipping the burn connector sleeves to gain access to the wire/connector and disconnecting the controller i used a meter set to the 200k ohm range to test the resistance of each coil, yellow/blue, green/blue, green/yellow, all zero'd out. retested with the meter set to 200ohm range (minimum setting) and got readings of 0.6ohm for each coil

Google isnt helping me find the expected values? so?? but i was expecting more ? perhaps 10-100ohm range? but not sub ohm.

I guess the next step is to validate the continuity of the flex feeding the power to the motor so removing and disassembly..

what is the expected coil resistance of a 250w hub motor?

Easiest way to test the motor is to spin it backwards and measure the voltage between each pair of phase wires. If it generates on all three pairs, it'll work as long as it's not jammed by rust.

 

[thelarkbox]

Yes, you can use that controller, but don't first connect the 36v battery when it's fully charged, otherwise the LCD might think it's a run down 48v one. you have to make first connection unambiguous as far as voltage is concerned. I'd make it below 38v, like around 36v should be OK.

Easiest way to test the motor is to spin it backwards and measure the voltage between each pair of phase wires. If it generates on all three pairs, it'll work as long as it's not jammed by rust.

Thanks for the tip on the bigger motor and controller/battery hookup..

And as for the easy way to test a motor ... well i had not yet opened a motor so it had to get done sooner or later, and i really wanted to fight with that one bloody screw that rounded off its cross head indenture for fun

All good fun..

good news a few ozs of sweat washed away the grime obscuring the identity etching on the motor cap (behind the freewheel)

PY36v26"250w 2206 0295

PY?, 0295? the rest is i think.
36v - voltage
26" - wheel size
250W - power rating
June 2022? -manufacture date?

Moisture has gotten into the motor, but it isnt filthy looking, I do think it might be worth pulling the centre out as some magnet edges look damaged and corroded? though i dont know what im looking for.. and nothing looks crooked
I tried to photograph the 'damaged' magnet edges but think the flash glare hides most of it?


the edges of some of the magnets is not a defined corner but just crumbled away..

 

[saneagle]

All looks fine to me. Maybe check the outer bearings for roughness and that the clutch works.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks @lenny,

Cheers, this is my first time to do with anything bdlc hands on.

And just to be clear I just used the probes to touch a blue/yellow, blue/green, green/yellow combo in turn without switching the polarity of the probes.

For phase testing it is the mosfets in the controllers that will be affected and not the motor phase wiring, Test each of the three colours with the ve- wire and then the v+ wire
Ve- one should see 7 -15k and all three need to be quite close , Ve+ one may get differing results but should see all three to be much the same , one may see infinity/ 1 or a raising numeral range as long as one doesn't see 0 then all should be ok.

 

[thelarkbox]

And testing the voltage output from a spinning motor, Is.... Very disappointing

fun and games reinstalling the wheel, so i pulled the back brake calliper and stand to get at the back brake calliper..

I popped the wheel back in and locked it in place. dug out some crocodile clip leads trimmed back the burnt connector ends on the wires, plugged the wheel back into the wiring and clipped on the meter leads onto freshly stripped wire.

peaks of 0.1v were rare with voltage barely registering when set to a 2v resolution,

I even enlisted a neighbour to spin the wheel at a constant speed while i tried to catch a peak in a photo..

Dejected i packed up stowing tools and the bike in the garage and when i picked up the meter, my thumb pushed home the COM connector!!! only a mm or 2 but it didn't register immediately, a few steps closer to the house and it struck me. ROLLOX!!

I will retest both resistance and voltage generation tomorrow.. 98% sure the meter was reading fine, but...

 

[thelarkbox]

I am an idiot.. the motor runs!
tldr - £100 ish should put the bike on the road ok.. aliexpress bargains required..

I suspected/hoped the issue was simply water ingress into the cracked lcd headset. so i intended to
validate the motor,
validate the controller?
replace headset if above ok..

since i know little about motors beyond a lay understanding of the concepts..
I had unfounded expectations (must be the case..) in my basic tests of resistance etc.. btw my meter is/was reading fine..

So today i pulled up my big boy pants, checked out the internals of the unknown battery. pulled the 5 into 1 julet cable from my working kit build, ( it needs a revisit to cable management anyway)

and plugged in a ;spare' kt 22a controller with a 10h headset to the wheel and battery.
Pressing + and - together for a few seconds starts the walk mode and the motor spun at a reported 6km/h.

Wahey! crunchy bearings tho..

spent the rest of the day stripping off broken bits and making a list of requirements, the brake sensor leads have worn but heat shrink should sort that out,

Prices below are based on aliexpress bargain expectations..

Assuming i use the 'spare' KT controller and headset , I will need
1 x julet style wheel extension wire. 3 phase and hall sensor 9pin Male to female
1 x 5 in to 1 julet connector lead
brake and gear cables
Instant gasket
new controller housing solution.
1 x m4x12mm screw (hub cover retaining screw)
<£50?

Julet terminated brake levers or sensors and julet terminated throttle would be nice but i can splice in the wires lets see the aliexpress deals..
<£30?
new bottom bracket and rear wheel bearings are top of the want list but bearing exchange is not trivial in the rear wheel,
<£20

Chain and 9speed freewheel. superficially rusty, no links have rusted together (yet)
Will clean and oil.. fingers crossed.

Front forks. some rust needs cleaning off with steel wool, and they look rebuildable but if seal kits exist ?? currently work and i cant bottom them out without lifting the wheel off the ground and smashing down and even then?

cant go shopping till after the w/end now, self discipline, well an attempt at it at least.

thanks for all the help and pointers.. next i shall jury rig a test for the no way is it legal huge 48v motor.. not sure what to do with it if it works, an off rd only bike is the only option..

 

[saneagle]

next i shall jury rig a test for the no way is it legal huge 48v motor.. not sure what to do with it if it works, an off rd only bike is the only option..

Convert it into a wind generator to power your house. Get two steel dustbins and cut them in half. That's your blades. Weld them to a shaft on bearings and run a chain to the motor. Whenever the wind blows, you'll have free energy. Obviously, you need a rectifier and regulator to charge a battery to store the energy.

 

[thelarkbox]

nice idea @saneagle but i doubt my fabrication skills to make something silent and not annoy everyone for miles around..