More Seizures

[Baz the balloon man]

Are they crushing the wrong bikes?

Probably take for instance Bird Bikes Sold by major high street retailers.

Bird went bust so now owners who can not get a replacement battery are left with a choice if they can not find a used replacement.

Scrap the bike or try to put on a road legal kit .

What is a road legal kit when you are talking to a copper , if you can a find one these days .

But is it actually road legal if cops just say “ This has been modified “ or Who is the manufacturer ie where is a manufacturer’s plate then what they are doing is making DIY builds illegal by default .

As usual in this country a really good thing is being spoiled by a minority so nanny state comes in with a one size fits all .

Or as very surprising on James Obrain ( not a misspelling) on LBC the other day let’s put insurance , number plates ECT on cycle’s .
Or something that can do a whole 15MPH for little cost ie let’s work out how to tax it a bit like widow tax hundred years ago .

What’s the point of ditching the car ? Let’s all drive 4x4 Chelsea tractors avoid bumps and drive straight at cyclists to avoid bumps with off road suspension that costs thousands of pounds .

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Alarm alarm wake up and smell the coffeee

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Why?
Privately owned E Scooters are illegal. End off. What else is needed?
The law concerning eapc's is concise though much mis-understood , mis- quoted and mis-interpreted.
Perhaps we all need to carry printed copies of the actual law. Does a version with the correct terminology and authoritive provenance actually exist?

Nanny state as is our laws

 

[flecc]

Perhaps we all need to carry printed copies of the actual law. Does a version with the correct terminology and authoritive provenance actually exist?

Not in one document.

First there is exemption (h) in Type Approval law which qualifies an EAPC to be a bicycle in law:

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with
an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the
output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops
pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and
finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

Then there are the labelling rules which are fragmented. However here is an authoritive statement from the DfT:

Confirmed as below by James Brown, International Vehicle Standards, Department for Transport:

"As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle."

This should be in the form of a plate or permanent label bearing all three items of information, mounted in a prominent easily read location on the bicycle.

Then there's EAPC throttles permitted by type approval, the proof of this included in the relevant type approval manual.

Then there's grandfather rights that permits EAPCs legally supplied before 1st January 2016 to indefinitely retain any throttle they already had, no formal statement available.

Finally there's the definition of maximum continuous rated power contained in technical document EN 15194, making it clear there is no actual legal limit to the wattage power available of an EAPC.

Mostly beyond a police officers pay grade understanding.
.

 

[lenny]

Police target illegal electric bikes and scooters in major crackdown

Police target illegal electric bikes and scooters in major crackdown

Wiltshire Police are to target illegal electric bikes and scooters in a major crackdown. On Friday, the force launched Operation Jetsom.

www.wiltshire999s.co.uk

 

[lenny]

Modified e-bike seized by police on Saltcoats' Seaview Road

Man reported after police seize modified e-bike in Saltcoats

A 40-year-old man has been reported to the procurator fiscal after police seized a modified e-bike in Saltcoats

www.ardrossanherald.com

 

[lenny]

lincspolice
Over the past few months, we have seen an increase in reports of e-bikes being used illegally in Lincoln city centre. Our Neighbourhood Policing Team (NPT) have run a recent operation on e-bikes in the city as part of Neighbourhood Policing Week.
https://www.tiktok.com/@lincspolice/video/7520244478267936022

 

[Sparksandbangs]

lincspolice
Over the past few months, we have seen an increase in reports of e-bikes being used illegally in Lincoln city centre. Our Neighbourhood Policing Team (NPT) have run a recent operation on e-bikes in the city as part of Neighbourhood Policing Week.
https://www.tiktok.com/@lincspolice/video/7520244478267936022

The old wheel off the floor test. I would have thought unnecessary with the obvious dinner plate.

 

[lenny]

The old wheel off the floor test. I would have thought unnecessary with the obvious dinner plate.

 

[danielrlee]

The old wheel off the floor test. I would have thought unnecessary with the obvious dinner plate.

Ignoring for a moment that an 'unloaded' speed test proves nothing, a direct drive (dinner plate) motor is not precluded from being rated at 250W:

Laser Mark 250W on Motor

Laser Engrave 250 Watt Continuous Power Rating on Motor Side Plate. This is Truthful. ALL Hub Motors Offered by Grin Have an Operating Point (RPM and Allowable Temperature) Where They Can Only Sustain 250W.

ebikes.ca

 

[Waspy]

The old wheel off the floor test. I would have thought unnecessary with the obvious dinner plate.

In this video, they do "the old wheel off the floor test" at 00:56 and get the speedo up to 74.5KMH.

I have no doubt the bike in question is illegal but how that test can be used as evidence to prove the bike can actually achieve 74.5KMH on the road is baffling.

But then, they are never going to prove in court the bike can do 74.5KMH. The officer decides it's illegal at the roadside, bike gets crushed, owner gets prosecuted, job done. Roadside judge and jury right there.

I wonder what happens when they do the wheel off the floor test on a LEGAL eBike and get the speedo to show over 30MPH? Because that is what you can achieve, I know because I've tried the test on my own legal eBike.

 

[flecc]

But then, they are never going to prove in court the bike can do 74.5KMH. The officer decides it's illegal at the roadside, bike gets crushed, owner gets prosecuted, job done. Roadside judge and jury right there.

Not so. If you refuse to accept that the bike is illegal, they have to take you to court and get the magistrates to issue the destruction order.

At which time you can shown the magistrates the proof that the bike is an entirely legal pedal cycle in law, conforming to the exemption in REGULATION (EU) No 168/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 January 2013, now accepted into our British law via the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which was passed into law by the UK Parliament on June 26, 2018, after receiving Royal Assent. It was introduced to Parliament following the 2016 EU referendum and aimed to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, which incorporated EU law into UK law.

The Act's primary purpose was to ensure legal continuity after the UK's withdrawal from the EU by converting existing EU law into domestic UK law. It also established a new category of UK law called "EU retained law".

Obviously, try to show that proof to the police first, either at the time or subsequently.
.

 

[guerney]

I wonder what happens when they do the wheel off the floor test on a LEGAL eBike and get the speedo to show over 30MPH? Because that is what you can achieve, I know because I've tried the test on my own legal eBike.

Thanks for linking that vid - although not a wheel off the ground pedal assist speed limit test, it's the first time I've seen police orificers do a cadence pedal assist function test. I have four magnets on my driven wheel at odd angles, but I am only using one at present. If I see that test testing speed and not just cadence sensing function, I could turn around the other three magnets towards the speed sensor, to befuddle and confound my Bafang BBS01B mid-drive controller's firmware, in order to make the display show incorrect low speed no matter how fast my rear wheel turns, load or no. Irritating because I've made efforts to make a legal bike, and because doing so would effectively destrict my presently legal bike's speed on the road while looking legal to thicko or malignant rozzers testing roadside. Unless I used a GPS app, I would never know my actual speed - rozzers following me on the road or in hot pursuit could see me proceeding faster than 25kph, and it'd also incorrectificate my odometer. Similar might be possible with KT kits, I don't know. Coppers really need to get an eddiyckaiyschun!

 

[Peter.Bridge]

In this video, they do "the old wheel off the floor test" at 00:56 and get the speedo up to 74.5KMH.

I have no doubt the bike in question is illegal but how that test can be used as evidence to prove the bike can actually achieve 74.5KMH on the road is baffling.

But then, they are never going to prove in court the bike can do 74.5KMH. The officer decides it's illegal at the roadside, bike gets crushed, owner gets prosecuted, job done. Roadside judge and jury right there.

I wonder what happens when they do the wheel off the floor test on a LEGAL eBike and get the speedo to show over 30MPH? Because that is what you can achieve, I know because I've tried the test on my own legal eBike.

In the wheel off the floor test, after the initial overrun, the motor should cut out until the speed drops to 25 km/h

 

[saneagle]

Not so. If you refuse to accept that the bike is illegal, they have to take you to court and get the magistrates to issue the destruction order.

At which time you can shown the magistrates the proof that the bike is an entirely legal pedal cycle in law, conforming to the exemption in REGULATION (EU) No 168/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 January 2013, now accepted into our British law via the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which was passed into law by the UK Parliament on June 26, 2018, after receiving Royal Assent. It was introduced to Parliament following the 2016 EU referendum and aimed to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, which incorporated EU law into UK law.

The Act's primary purpose was to ensure legal continuity after the UK's withdrawal from the EU by converting existing EU law into domestic UK law. It also established a new category of UK law called "EU retained law".

Obviously, try to show that proof to the police first, either at the time or subsequently.
.

The one that leaves you vulnerable is the label. Can they seize and destroy your bike just for not having one, in which case the police don't need to discuss the validity of any other part of their assessment? The government guidelines say you must have a label or markings with the prescribed information, so if one item of the information list is missing, can they still seize and destroy your bike? Is there an actual law about that?

Let's say that you get a piece of notepaper, write on it the motor manufacturer, 250w, 36v, max speed 15 mph, then selotape it onto the crossbar. Does that meet the legal requirement, leaving you the opportunity to dispute the validity of any wheel in the air test?

 

[Waspy]

The one that leaves you vulnerable is the label. Can they seize and destroy your bike just for not having one, in which case the police don't need to discuss the validity of any other part of their assessment? The government guidelines say you must have a label or markings with the prescribed information, so if one item of the information list is missing, can they still seize and destroy your bike? Is there an actual law about that?

Let's say that you get a piece of notepaper, write on it the motor manufacturer, 250w, 36v, max speed 15 mph, then selotape it onto the crossbar. Does that meet the legal requirement, leaving you the opportunity to dispute the validity of any wheel in the air test?

Apologies if you've seen this short clip before but in it the police seize a (legal) Hitway BK15 for having no label.

Maybe it never came with one, maybe it fell off...who knows?

It would be a test case if someone had a legal eBike with a home-made label seized. The law doesn't (I believe) state who exactly has to make the label but I think the police may argue that the law would assume the label would come from the manufacturer.

 

[saneagle]

Apologies if you've seen this short clip before but in it the police seize a (legal) Hitway BK15 for having no label.

Maybe it never came with one, maybe it fell off...who knows?

It would be a test case if someone had a legal eBike with a home-made label seized. The law doesn't (I believe) state who exactly has to make the label but I think the police may argue that the law would assume the label would come from the manufacturer.

He said "legislation" requires that it has a label, but he was simply reading from a crib sheet. My question is - what actual legislation in this country says you must have a label? Where is the act of parliament or the regulation that says you must have it? It's written in EN15194 that you must have it, but my understanding is that compliance with EN 15194 is not obligatory for riding an Ebike. can anybody point to a law that says it is, in which case the police would be able to seize your bike for having no reflectors on the pedals or a Chinese headlight.

 

[Sparksandbangs]

He said "legislation" requires that it has a label, but he was simply reading from a crib sheet. My question is - what actual legislation in this country says you must have a label?

The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Although it says 'visibly and durably marked'. It doesn't specify a label but I suppose a label complies with that statement.

 

[flecc]

My question is - what actual legislation in this country says you must have a label?

2015 No. 474
ROAD TRAFFIC
The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) (Amendment)
Regulations 2015

LINK

Within that is this extract:

"(3) In regulation 4—

(a) omit the words “it is fitted with”;

(b) for paragraph (a) substitute—

(i) fitted with a plate securely fixed in a conspicuous and readily accessible
position showing—

(aa) the name of the manufacturer of the vehicle,

(bb) the nominal voltage of the battery (as defined in the 1971 British Standard) of the vehicle, and

(cc) the continuous rated output (as defined in the 1971 British Standard) of
the motor of the vehicle; or

(ii) visibly and durably marked with—

(aa) the name of the manufacturer of the vehicle,

(bb) the maximum speed at which the motor can propel the vehicle specified in miles per hour or kilometres per hour, and

(cc) the maximum continuous rated power (as defined in the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations 1983)(d) of the motor of the vehicle specified in watts or kilowatts;”;

Either according to the standard when manufactured.

But always remember it is not for the accused to prove innocence. It is for the prosecution to prove guilt, which if the bike is legal they have failed to do.

The question of "wheel in the air" speed testing is a sticky one, since the law species a strict cut off at 15.5mph which the police are relying on. However, the law also specifies it as the assist speed cut off, so since in such a test the assist function, which needs power, was not being used, the test is arguably invalid.

An order to destroy is to deal with vehicles that cannot be legal at the time, such as privately owned e-scooter. Clearly that doesn't apply if a label or plate is missing from an EAPC and it is the only fault, so any attempt to get such an order can be successfully challenged in court, or preferably before the hearing.
.

 

[Waspy]

In the wheel off the floor test, after the initial overrun, the motor should cut out until the speed drops to 25 km/h

If you mean that by turning the pedals slowly in a low gear with the rear wheel off the ground, a legal eBike in level 5 assist will only indicate 15-16 MPH, that is true. But I'm not sure if all police are aware of this. If they spin the pedals vigorously by hand to see what speed they can get, it is easy to get 30MPH showing.

The 'wheel off the floor test' is just ridiculous IMHO. Why don't they just ride the bike? In a low gear, ghost pedalling in max assist mode?

I think the whole business is just too complex for plod to comprehend.

But maybe I'm just reading too much into it and most of them know they need to go after the 52v 15000w dinner plate specials with a twist and go throttle.

But as saneagle said, it is the labelling that is a vulnerable area for legal eBike owners, I would advise anyone with a legal eBike to pay particular attention to this area.