2 Year, 8000 mile Review of Kalkhoff Pro-Connect

[oriteroom]

It had to come!!

Hi all (and c elder in particular)

Back in April you did an excellent review of 2 years and 8000 miles experience of a Pro Connect. You outlined your chain cleaning/replacement regime. I reported at that time that after some 3500 miles each my wife and my Pro Connects were Ok. BUT.... There are some nasty crunches coming from the chain drive now (4000 miles covered), mine being worse that Mrs 'O', but I'm heavier. (I've tightened motor bolts/cranks/pedals and it seems to be chain related and the chain has certainly stretched a lot). It got worse today during a great New Forest ride - ended up feeling like stirring porridge!

You quoted you were using SRAM PC1 1/8" chain (from SJS). I note this comes in 114 links as a standard length - is that long enough? Our chains seem to be more like 120+ links long?

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

Thanks

Mike

 

[Alex728]

If they are anything like other e-bikes you have to buy two chains for the first replacement and add the extra links from the second chain. The battery lengthens the wheelbase making many chains too short out of the box.

Of course with subsequent replacements you need only buy 1 x "new" chain of the same make and then add links from the previously shortened chain, until you've run out of spare bits of chain.

And with "his and hers" bikes you need only buy three chains as one can provide the extra links for both the other two.

I will leave it as an exercise for any maths geniuses to work out how many full chain replacements of the e-bikes the extra shortened chain will provide (actually that would probably be a good maths question for a teacher to set their class)

 

[tillson]

50 Cycles sell chains, £10.21 each. The are sold as Kalkhoff Chains, so I assume that they will be long enough.

 

[JamesC]

Hi all (and c elder in particular)

Back in April you did an excellent review of 2 years and 8000 miles experience of a Pro Connect. You outlined your chain cleaning/replacement regime. I reported at that time that after some 3500 miles each my wife and my Pro Connects were Ok. BUT.... There are some nasty crunches coming from the chain drive now (4000 miles covered), mine being worse that Mrs 'O', but I'm heavier. (I've tightened motor bolts/cranks/pedals and it seems to be chain related and the chain has certainly stretched a lot). It got worse today during a great New Forest ride - ended up feeling like stirring porridge!

You quoted you were using SRAM PC1 1/8" chain (from SJS). I note this comes in 114 links as a standard length - is that long enough? Our chains seem to be more like 120+ links long?

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

Thanks

Mike

Mike

Yes - the clip holding the chainwheel is just prized off - you can get under it with a very thin screwdriver - cover it with a cloth as it tends to fly off.

The motor sprocket is the one that uses a traditional circlip needing external circlip pliers.

The motor sprocket is the only one of the three sprockets that has a second life by removing it and turning it over - the chainwheel and rear sprocket have to be replaced.

Chainwheel and motor sprockets are by Panasonic and are readily available from 50cycles - rear sprocket is Shimano - Petra Cycles usually have the various choices available.

Because of the different Kalkhoff frame sizes and the different sizes of rear sprocket, it is difficult to be specific about the length of chain. You are right that you will need roughly 120 links, and that standard bike chains are normally sold as 114 links.

So you will need a chain tool suitable for 1/8" chain to break the chain into the appropriate length.

Everyone has their favourite method - mine is as follows:

1. Remove old chain and replace any sprockets that are worn.
2. Fit back wheel with the tabs on the non-rotation washers into the closed end of the drop out slot, and pull the wheel up against the closed end. (This makes it easy to reposition the wheel to the same place after a puncture, and guarantees that there is some space for chain tensioning in the future by turning the washer.)
3. Clean bike, put newspaper on kitchen table, and get bike up to a sensible height (best to put the emphasis on doing Mrs O's bike first).
4. Print off this page from Flecc's site to remember the best setting of 60-65 mm for the idler adjustment.
5. Thread 114 link chain around the sprockets, knowing that there will be a 3 inch gap because it is too short. Have the gap on the top run close to the chainwheel.
6. Thread a bit of thin strong string through each end of the chain, one link back from each end. Tighten the string until you have the 60-65 mm shown in the picture.
7. Offer up a second piece of chain against the gap to decide on the most appropriate length of the extra required. Cut chain to suit and insert the piece.
8. Remove string and replace chainguard.

If the number of links does not give a good tension, it will be neccessary to move the rear wheel in the dropout.

Tighten the rear hub nuts - need to be close to the recommended maximum of 35 ft lbs to hold the wheel, but this is also close to the limit that the nut will stand. I find that there is less tendency for the nut to come slack when the tab of the non-rotation is trapped tightly into the closed end of the dropout.

Make absoloutely certain that the outer sheath of the gear cable is sitting into the very bottom of the pocket on the hub gear cassette. If the wheel has been moved back in order to tighten the chain, the outer often comes away from the bottom of the pocket, making the gear change noisy and unreliable. Doublecheck that the dots line up in 4th gear.

Readjust the rear brakes to the new position of the rear wheel.

James

 

[flecc]

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

Thanks

Mike

It seems it will be a prise off ring Mike, just like Shimano's hubgear one. A pity if Panasonic are using them now, conventional circlips are so much better.

Here's the index page of my Panasonic support site.
.

 

[oriteroom]

Thanks for the helpful replies - I've been on a long weekend down Torquay (mainly walking) - now there's an area that needs pedelecs!! but great countryside.

Mike

 

[oriteroom]

Meassage to James

Hi James

How about getting that spring circlip back on if it 'pings off' sounds like it's lively? Any tips or is it easy?

Thanks

Mike

 

[c_elder]

... I reported at that time that after some 3500 miles each my wife and my Pro Connects were Ok. BUT.... There are some nasty crunches coming from the chain drive now (4000 miles covered), mine being worse that Mrs 'O', but I'm heavier. (I've tightened motor bolts/cranks/pedals and it seems to be chain related and the chain has certainly stretched a lot). It got worse today during a great New Forest ride - ended up feeling like stirring porridge!

You quoted you were using SRAM PC1 1/8" chain (from SJS). I note this comes in 114 links as a standard length - is that long enough? Our chains seem to be more like 120+ links long? ...

Hi oriteroom

Sorry for being late joining the discussion but Alex728, JamesC and flecc have all responded with the solutions I employ. I have to admit, removing the rear wheel is a bit beyond me so would be interested to hear how you got on.

 

[oriteroom]

James/Flecc

How easy is it to replace the rear sprocket - can you point me in the right direction for info - I'm a bit 'nervous' with all that gear change mechanism etc? What the assembled wisdom on best sprocket size (teeth). As I've got to change should I stay as is or change to 19/18T?

Thanks

Mike

 

[flecc]

I've never changed the 8 speed sprocket, but these cutouts from Shimano's technical documents, showing the parts and parts list section on the link below should help:



View attachment 1473

 

[JamesC]

Hi James

How about getting that spring circlip back on if it 'pings off' sounds like it's lively? Any tips or is it easy?

Thanks

Mike

Hello Mike
Just back yesterday from a few days cycling in Norfolk.

1. Motor sprocket - proper circlip - very easy with external circlip pliers.
2. Chainwheel - panasonic snap ring that requires a little bit of levering with small screwdriver, but goes on quite easily.
3. Rear hub sprocket - shimano snap ring - very strong steel spring ring that is hard to open sufficiently to pop into place.
With the wheel supported flat on a table, push the ring partway on, then I use two small screwdrivers to lever the two ends sufficiently open to prise the ring back into the slot.

So the rear hub needs a lot of patience - as the wheel is off the bike to do this job, a second pair of strong hands can sometimes help to defeat the strength of the spring. It is very easy to see what is needed; just takes several attempts to come up with the best method with the particular range of screwdrivers that you happen to have.

The following Shimano Technical Documents are helpful:

For the WH-8R25 (24 spoke) wheel of the original Pro Connect, the pictures of the SG-8R25 hub are useful.

For the SG-8R36 hub (36 spoke) fitted as standard on the Tasman, and suggested as a replacement to the original WH-8R25 (24 spoke) wheel on the Pro Connect.

Both of the above assume that the bike is fitted with the 8speed Nexus twist shift (standard on Tasman).

The Pro Connect is fitted with the 8speed Alfine lever shift covered in this document.

Hope these are useful.

James

 

[JamesC]

James/Flecc

How easy is it to replace the rear sprocket - can you point me in the right direction for info - I'm a bit 'nervous' with all that gear change mechanism etc? What the assembled wisdom on best sprocket size (teeth). As I've got to change should I stay as is or change to 19/18T?

Thanks

Mike

Mike

This might be overkill, but here are some notes from a post of mine last year.


The Shimano rear wheel (WH-8R25) uses a Shimano Nexus 8 hub and a cassette arrangement (CJ-8S20), into which the gear change cable is clipped.

Before starting a sprocket change, it is useful to take a couple of photos of the arrangement to refer to later if memory is lost.

From Aldby's post (edited for ProConnect):

To remove the rear wheel on the ProConnect:
1. Select 1st gear, this releases tension on the gear cable.
2. You should now be able to pull the outer cable forwards by a few millimetres where it locates into the cassette holder.
3. The inner gear cable will now be free of tension and can be easily detached from the gear hub.
Column 3 in Nexus 8 PDF describes this well. It helps greatly to get a little extra slack using a thin 2mm Allen key or old spoke placed in the hole on the outside of the cassette pulley, as described at the foot of the column. Do NOT disturb the inner cable fixing bolt.
4. Slacken off the rear V brakes completely so that the wheel and tyre are freely removable.

Turn bike upside down.

5. Slacken off the hub nuts enough to be able to remove the wheel from the dropouts.
6. You should now be able to lift the the wheel out and remove the chain from the rear sprocket at the same time, leaving the chain still as a continuous loop on the bike.

Lay wheel flat on a bench (or across your knees). Place each item that you remove carefully in the same orientation ready to go back.

7. Remove the cassette that held the gear cable by rotating the centre fixing ring (yellow dot) 45deg anticlockwise. Lift off the cassette.

8. With flat bladed screwdriver, gently ease up the plastic ring (driver cap) that covers the "snap ring" which holds the sprocket in place.

9. With the screw driver, gently prize the snap ring clear of the sprocket, taking care as it will fly across the room very easily. Lift off the sprocket.

Assembly is the reverse and is described and shown in Nexus 8 - Sprocket and Cassette PDF.

Sprocket
SnapRing
Driver Cap (plastic ring)
Cassette (align red dots)
Cassette Fixing ring (align yellow dots and twist 45 deg clockwise)

Wheel is now ready, but shorten chain before refitting in frame as per earlier post.
Remove 1 chainlink (= 1 inner + 2 outers) and rejoin with 1 outer.
Check chain is correctly routed through the panasonic drive.

Refit wheel into frame, checking chain tension as the wheel is pressed into drop outs. Check wheel is aligned and central in the frame.
Make sure the wheel nuts are well tightened to prevent wheel shifting when pedalling hard.

Still with gear selector in 1st gear, rehook the gear cable as described here at the foot of column 5.
Gently test that pedals turn, and chain passes freely around circuit.

Set bike upright.
Select 4th gear to check that yellow marks are still aligned.
Reconnect brakes.
Double check wheel nuts.
Gently test that everything turns smoothly.


James

 

[tangent]

To get the cursed hub snap ring back on, I push it into place as best I can with one hand, then carefully prise the ring apart with circlip pliers. Takes a few attmepts but goes on eventually. It is well worth checking the thing is seated correctly afterwards by prodding all the way round with a small screwdriver.

 

[oriteroom]

Thanks to you all,particularly JamesC's informative compilation, it's instilled some confidence in me to tackle it over the weekend, rear sprocket due from Petra Cycles in the morning.

James - Mrs O fancies some cycling in Norfolk - any good ride suggestions?

Mike

 

[JamesC]

James - Mrs O fancies some cycling in Norfolk - any good ride suggestions?

Mike

My favourite area has been cycling out from The Old Brick Kilns campsite which is in the village of Barney, just east of Fakenham.

The Goldeneye Norfolk map shows the many cycling routes in the area on quiet country lanes.

In particular, I can recommend the area including Holkam Hall which itself is well worth a visit.

Binham Priory is also worth visiting and contains the Parish Church. I remember that there are four excellent cycle routes available from the information table in the church for 50p each.

James

 

[oriteroom]

Thanks to all the excellent 'support' provided by this forum I managed to complete the change of rear sprocket/chain and motor sprocket on my bike yesterday and have been out on it today (38 miles up the Wylye Valley near Salisbury). Thankfully the 'drive train' is behaving like new again from feeling like stirring porridge a week ago. Chain stretch by 4000 miles was the culprit and everyone was right - you've got to change at least the rear sprocket and the motor sprocket (or turn that one around). Initally tried just the chain but whilst the crunching went, the new chain just slipped on rear/motor sprockets.

Following flecc's 'manual' which said it wasn't always necessary,, I haven't (yet) replaced the front chainring (but have it ready) but everything seems sweet enough. One question, does the pedal crank require a puller to get it off or is it just a matter of undoing the nut and 'pulling'?

I took the opportunity to change the rear sprocket to a 19T. Wish I'd done that earlier! I really like the higher gearing and as I (and Mrs 'O') only really use the power assist for hills and headwinds (we normally get 150+ miles from a charge) I probably won't notice the extra 'power drain'. An additional advantage with the 19T is that the walking throttle assist is at a slightly higher speed (more like 3.5mph than 2.5mph) which is more comfortable when walking up really steep hills (we like to use a different set of muscles occasionally).

Now I've got to do Mrs 'O' Pro Connect which at 3,500 miles is starting to show the same signs of drive train wear as mine. I'll stick with the larger 22/23T rear sprocket (she's not a speed merchant!) but I'm thinking of putting an 11 tooth motor sprocket on hers. Again, I assume the 11 tooth motor sprocket will increase her walking throttle assist a bit.

I am surprised, but perhaps I shouldn't have been, that the 'drive train' and chain in particular should only last 4000 miles and that of course then necessitates both chain and sprocket changes. I note that in c-elder's review his first chain had had it by 4000 miles. These are the first bikes I've ever owned that I've had to replace worn chains. The chains have been lovingly cared for, never out in wet weather and regularly oiled and wiped clean. Perhaps they've had too much kindness! I've used GT85, but wonder if that's the best lube, or is a wax or wet lube better? I like c-elder idea of rotating chains (do I take it that if it's weekly that's about every 150-200 miles).

Talking of chain wear/sprocket replacement on Pro Connect's, I'm left wondering what the performance of the Pro Connect S or the latest Pro Connect (LX?) which don't have the hub gear (have thought one day of upgrading). If the chain wears out again at ~4000 miles, anyone know how the costs compare for a single hub sprocket and the cassette gears of the S?

Thanks again for all the replies and help that this forum provides - it's always superb.

Mike

 

[JamesC]

Following flecc's 'manual' which said it wasn't always necessary,, I haven't (yet) replaced the front chainring (but have it ready) but everything seems sweet enough. One question, does the pedal crank require a puller to get it off or is it just a matter of undoing the nut and 'pulling'?


Mike

Glad it went well.

Regarding the cranks, they ought to need a puller - I use this Shimano TL-FC10.

The cranks are made of aluminium and if they work loose then the square taper begins to lose its shape and you get a creaking noise for ever more. If there is no creaking as you pedal each revolution at the moment then you are going to need a puller.

Clean out any chrome plating from the thread in the crank and apply some grease before screwing the puller into the aluminium. It is quite easy to damage the soft thread if it is clogged up.

The nut needs to be done up surprisingly tightly with a socket - I think it is recommended to be 35 ftlbs which is about as tight as you can get on the wrench whilst holding the pedal against the force on the same side as the nut that you are tightening.

I have never liked putting much force on one pedal whilst tightening the opposite side because the Panasonic system includes sensing of pedal pressure. Not sure how easy it is to damage this.

James

 

[Neil]

We are lucky

I expect 2,500 miles out of my chain and rear cog. I will change the front and drive cog at 5,000 miles. At £16 for rear cog and chain I am not complaining it dirt cheep compared to a derailleur setup.

 

[WALKERMAN]

I have now completed just over 6000 miles on my two year ProConnect and had a lot of noise fron the pedal area.
I read everything on this thread and found loads of helpful information which was invaluable in changing the chain and cogs.
Because of lack of time I replaced the chain wheel and chain first but found it was even noisier so I then replaced the drive cog. It was very badly worn on one side. I didn't reuse it as some suggest because I think it will become very weak with future wear on the other side.
This was now much better but some slight noise is coming from the rear sprocket which must also be worn and that will be replaced at the weekend.
I decided to support 50Cycles and ordered the parts from them at a cost of £46. I marked the order 'urgent' but it took three times longer than if I had ordered from my regular supplier Wiggle.
Also no matter how I tried I couldn't get the joining link to go on the chain so I used a chain splitter which was much easier.
Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments which made the job quite straightforward.

 

[WALKERMAN]

I have now completed just over 6000 miles on my two year ProConnect and had a lot of noise fron the pedal area.
I read everything on this thread and found loads of helpful information which was invaluable in changing the chain and cogs.
Because of lack of time I replaced the chain wheel and chain first but found it was even noisier so I then replaced the drive cog. It was very badly worn on one side. I didn't reuse it as some suggest because I think it will become very weak with future wear on the other side.
This was now much better but some slight noise is coming from the rear sprocket which must also be worn and that will be replaced at the weekend.
I decided to support 50Cycles and ordered the parts from them at a cost of £46. I marked the order 'urgent' but it took three times longer than if I had ordered from my regular supplier Wiggle.
Also no matter how I tried I couldn't get the joining link to go on the chain so I used a chain splitter which was much easier.
Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments which made the job quite straightforward.

After fitting the new chain and sprockets I still have noise when pedalling especially on the left pedal. I noticed that the new chain-sprocket (pedal end) has radiused teeth whereas the original has sharp pointed teeth. Can someone tell me which is correct?