250W / 48V 10ah on-off Road? (BMX)‏‏

[john]

.....I had to produce, as one of his defence witneses, the full technical specification of the bike and belive me if it had had a 250 watt motor he would have been found guilty. In another case in Bournemouth, were a person had been found guilty of riding his electric bike without insurance and given a fine and 6 points on his license, we submitted evidence to the appeal hearing in front of a circuit Judge and 2 magistrates, that his electric bike complied with the law....again if he had had a 250 watt motor he would have lost his appeal.....

I am fascinated by your experiences.
One question I have is how the power of the motor was determined?
Was it simply the figure quoted by the manufacturer or did the method of measurement have to be clarified?
Was any restriction by the controller taken into account?

 

[flecc]

The Powacycle Salisbury is plated with voltage and wattage as well as the name of a Chinese company (presumably where it is made). At least mine is anyway. Nothing about age mentioned though...

The Wisper does have a label of voltage/wattage on the hub motor (not exactly prominent).

Thanks Alex, that's useful. Most makes just seem to ignore that provision. A few do as Wisper do, but that doesn't meet the requirements in terms of completeness or prominence.

Rider age limit plating isn't required, 14 is a British requirement anyway. Most don't have a minimum age limit though Sweden has 15 years.
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[Wisper Bikes]

The voltage doesn't matter, it just has to be rated at 250 watts or less under EU law which was ratified here in the UK on 10th November 2002.
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Hi Flecc i believe that 48V is maximum permitable hence keeping o 36 V as on fill charge we are actually at 42.5V, I could easily be wrong though!

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

Thanks David, I wasn't aware of a maximum voltage, though set that high it's never like to affect us on legal road bikes. I daresay any legal maximum would be the battery nominal manufactured voltage though, not the highest point at full charge.

A bit like the mean 250 watt motor power figure being used rather than the peak/maximum possible.
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[Alex728]

I think 48V is also a maximum set for electrical safety of portable equipment (above that it is subject to the same regulations as mains powered equipment) as well as just applying to e-bikes.. its picked as its the highest voltage telecoms equipment usually operates at (other than ringing voltage)

 

[flecc]

I think 48V is also a maximum set for electrical safety of portable equipment

This regulation always amuses me when there's portable 220 volt generators.
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[dan]

I am fascinated by your experiences.
One question I have is how the power of the motor was determined?
Was it simply the figure quoted by the manufacturer or did the method of measurement have to be clarified?
Was any restriction by the controller taken into account?

we supplied the manufacurers specifications and thier test report, the contoller was not an issue

 

[dan]

Could you tell me which e-bike manufacturer does that Dan?

It's a serious query for me to be up to date with such information. At present I only know of one person who intends to manufacture in the near future and do that.
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in these cases it was Sakura....but i know other manufactures have put labels on their bikes

 

[Alex728]

This regulation always amuses me when there's portable 220 volt generators.
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there are "portable" 400V gensets too (though you wouldn't be shifting them single handed) - actually I checked the SELV regulations and its 120V DC which is the max so there may be a separate rule for outdoor/portable equipment. (120V DC is (or was) used on some telecoms circuits (particularly legacy ISDN kit) and will give you a bite if you put your fingers on a open terminal block without thinking)

 

[john]

we supplied the manufacurers specifications and thier test report, the contoller was not an issue

Most of us who look at the regulations have a hard time understanding how "maximum continuous rated power output of the motor" should be interpreted.

Such a rating from a manufacturer is normally specified as high as possible without there being a risk of motor damage. However, when fitted to a bicycle they would be inclined to down-rate their motor so as to stay within the regulation. Possibly for this reason, many look at the controller and reason that if it restricts the power to the motor then this can bring it into at least the spirit of the law. Without test cases it is hard to know how such an argument would fair in court.

 

[Mussels]

Without test cases it is hard to know how such an argument would fair in court.

And that would need to be a proper court rather than a magistrates pot luck court.

 

[dan]

Most of us who look at the regulations have a hard time understanding how "maximum continuous rated power output of the motor" should be interpreted.

Such a rating from a manufacturer is normally specified as high as possible without there being a risk of motor damage. However, when fitted to a bicycle they would be inclined to down-rate their motor so as to stay within the regulation. Possibly for this reason, many look at the controller and reason that if it restricts the power to the motor then this can bring it into at least the spirit of the law. Without test cases it is hard to know how such an argument would fair in court.

as all things there is a standard that covers measuring the maximum rated power for an EPAC motor.....it is IEC60034-1, if you google IEC60034-1 it will take you to a downloadable version of the standard

 

[Mussels]

as all things there is a standard that covers measuring the maximum rated power for an EPAC motor.....it is IEC60034-1, if you google IEC60034-1 it will take you to a downloadable version of the standard

Then why doesn't it mention EPAC anywhere in the document, and where does the EPAC law define the IEC as the standards authority?
Blind links to huge documents aren't a lot of help.

Edit: IEC doesn't set standards for the EU and although they try to keep them the same CENLEC does make changes.

 

[john]

as all things there is a standard that covers measuring the maximum rated power for an EPAC motor.....it is IEC60034-1, if you google IEC60034-1 it will take you to a downloadable version of the standard

I had looked at that spec before. It is really designed to ensure that equipment is capable of meeting a particular requirement, e.g. of continuous power output. As far as I can see, a manufacturer could take a motor which was in fact capable of 300W but specify it as 200W whilst still meeting the requirements of this standard.

 

[dan]

Then why doesn't it mention EPAC anywhere in the document, and where does the EPAC law define the IEC as the standards authority?
Blind links to huge documents aren't a lot of help.

Edit: IEC doesn't set standards for the EU and although they try to keep them the same CENLEC does make changes.

IEC and EN standards are used in the EPAC standard in section 2 as normative references, and specificaly in section 4 maximum power measurement. it is quite normal for standards to use references to other bodies. saves reinventing the wheel so to speak

 

[z0mb13e]

Muddy waters...

So where do we stand or is this a case of waiting for the law to feel its way with the unfortunate few who are guinea pigs?

Isn't the 'old' uk legislation to be repealed soon?

As I ride through Bournemouth I don't particularly want to fall foul of whichever police officer decided they didn't like the look of an ebike and now knows he can get a judgment on a technicality.

Am I right in thinking that this was in a case where it was a mistake by ministers that led to the uk legislation remaining in force? Don't the government usually get their knuckles rapped for this kind of thing?

Questions, questions, questions...

 

[flecc]

So where do we stand or is this a case of waiting for the law to feel its way with the unfortunate few who are guinea pigs?

Not exactly a few, probably over 40,000 e-bikes rated at 250 watts on British roads.

We are in good company.

The DfT will say it's 200 watts when asked, but when they've been pushed hard on this issue the confidence subsides and they then say only a test case will determine it.
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[Wisper Bikes]

200 or 250

BEBA are involved with the consultation regarding bringing the EU and UK regulations in line. We have been told that until the conclusion of the consultations, which will certainly bring the European 250W standard into the UK, has been finalised there will not be a problem using 250W bikes in the UK.

To confirm this point I have today spoken with Lord Laird's office (Lord Laird is president of BEBA) they have agreed to submit a written question to the House of Commons asking for direction on this point, answers normally take two weeks. As soon as I have heard I will post on Pedelecs.

Best regards

David

 

[flecc]

Thanks for your efforts on this David.

I'll look forward to the announcement which I'm sure will be favourable for 250 watt usage continuation.
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[Wisper Bikes]

Throttle

Me too Flecc, I am certain that 250W will be the new standard.

We have also asked to keep the throttle up to 15.5mph on the grounds that the less fit will be able to make more use of the vehicle as a real alternative to a car or petrol fuelled motorbike, you never can tell, they might see sense as there have been very few problems with throttles in the past.

All the best

David