A little extra help for an aging commuter...

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Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 11, 2019
13
0
Hello, I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm looking for a hub motor of about 250w that is capable of about 400 rpm. The closest I can find is 500w and 328 rpm (Q128c) which is more power than I really want.

Is it possible to re-gear a hub motor to reduce torque and increase rpm?

Also do controllers adjust the voltage going to the motor to control speed or is speed controlled by pulsing the coils and keeping the voltage the same (like a stepper motor?) I'm guessing if it is like a stepper motor, the motor will resist any leg power beyond the motors maximum / controlled speed.

Thanks
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
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Basildon
You can change the speed of any motor by using a different volage. Q100c is smaller and lighter than a Q128C

Torque is proportional to current, so just turn down the current if you want less torque.

Why don't you tell us what you're trying to achieve, so we can tell you how to get it rather than asking cryptic questions?
 

QuestionsQuestions

Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 11, 2019
13
0
Great thanks, I don't know how I missed the Q100c, which is a better fit but still 70 rpm short of perfect.

When I was at school the only way you could reduce the current for a given load was to reduce the voltage but that would also reduce the rpm. Has the world moved on?
 

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
4,040
2,858
Winchester
I'm guessing if it is like a stepper motor, the motor will resist any leg power beyond the motors maximum controlled speed.
Most hub motors have an automatic clutch so don't give any resistance above the speed they are helping.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
21,781
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400rpm is fast for a geared hub and usually these higher winds are found in Direct drive hubs.
If bent on needing 400rpm or more then you will need to over volt the 36v 328rpm 250w Q100c from Topbikekit.com. Limit the controller to < 17a and it might last or replace the two stage planet gears with metal ones.
Member Cwah has tried and burnt a couple out (I believe) and users on ES have also burnt them out by exceeding 20a.
Also watch out for the forum troll who will likely pipe up with his cut and paste as usual.
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
21,781
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Most hub motors have an automatic clutch so don't give any resistance above the speed they are helping.
Some hubs cycle better unassisted then others , my Q128C is much easier unassisted then my Bafang BPM & CST. The later ones and a lot of hubs use a 5:1 gearing ratio whilst AKM hubs have double the ratio or more.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
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Basildon
Great thanks, I don't know how I missed the Q100c, which is a better fit but still 70 rpm short of perfect.

When I was at school the only way you could reduce the current for a given load was to reduce the voltage but that would also reduce the rpm. Has the world moved on?
Your head is full of misonceptions. One more time, tell us what you want to achieve so we can help.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
21,781
8,849
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West Sx RH
Your head is full of misonceptions. One more time, tell us what you want to achieve so we can help.
Perhaps a pacemaker at a velodrome :rolleyes: .
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
564
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Hello, I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm looking for a hub motor of about 250w that is capable of about 400 rpm. The closest I can find is 500w and 328 rpm (Q128c) which is more power than I really want.

Is it possible to re-gear a hub motor to reduce torque and increase rpm?

Also do controllers adjust the voltage going to the motor to control speed or is speed controlled by pulsing the coils and keeping the voltage the same (like a stepper motor?) I'm guessing if it is like a stepper motor, the motor will resist any leg power beyond the motors maximum / controlled speed.

Thanks
Some controllers are programmable to allow usage & support for different wheel sizes. If you have such a controller, simply change setup to a wheel size that is smaller.
Disclaimer, I have never myself tried this, but theory suggests that it might work fine, though some controllers do not allow other wheel sizes.
But do not forget that exceeding the allowed max speed (if that is your intention), you might make yourself liable to possible prosecution, if the bike is not correctly registered for that new performance.
Scooting along at say 30MPH on a public road, makes you very obvious to the Police.
regards
Andy
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,994
Basildon
Some controllers are programmable to allow usage & support for different wheel sizes. If you have such a controller, simply change setup to a wheel size that is smaller.
Disclaimer, I have never myself tried this, but theory suggests that it might work fine, though some controllers do not allow other wheel sizes.
All the wheel size setting does is make the speed calculation approximately right, so that you get the right speed displayed in the LCD. That calculated speed is used to determine the cut-off point in some controllers, others get it independently, so it doesn't affect it. That's the cut-off for the legal maximum speed if you have one set.
 
D

Deleted member 25121

Guest
When I was at school the only way you could reduce the current for a given load was to reduce the voltage but that would also reduce the rpm. Has the world moved on?
That's true for motors with brushes, eBike motors nowadays are brushless and the speed of the motor is varied by adjusting the timing of pulses of current delivered to the several windings of the motor.

The controller acts as a current source, regulating the timing and current supplied to the motor. If the required current/torque is low then the voltage developed across the motor will also be low and it won't matter what the battery voltage is provided it's greater than that developed across the motor and isn't so high that it damages the controller.

Higher current controllers are, as their name implies, capable of providing higher currents and its important that the battery has a high enough voltage to provide that current, when required, into the motor load and is also capable of supplying that current.

I hope that answers your question.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
564
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All the wheel size setting does is make the speed calculation approximately right, so that you get the right speed displayed in the LCD. That calculated speed is used to determine the cut-off point in some controllers, others get it independently, so it doesn't affect it. That's the cut-off for the legal maximum speed if you have one set.
Interesting, but how will the controller KNOW the actual wheel size in use? That is the fundamental thing needed, to allow it to stay at the correct speed limit! "An all seeing Eyeball" in the controller maybe?
I would be seriously MOST interested in just how a controller "knows" which wheel size is in use on a bike.
The sensors for speed are partly the hall effect sensors for revolutions and the wheel diameter, which can easily be altered on some controllers by the user....
Some of them use a magnet on a spoke, but the controller still does not know the size of the actual wheel in use! IT CANNOT!
I also found that certain types of controllers only allow fine adjustment of wheel size, plus/minus 5%, just to get the speed indication correct, but you are not able to change the physical wheel size.
I looked on YouTube and found this:-
But this bike mechanic, tells it JUST AS I SURMISED, is to simply change the wheel diameter, that is if the controller allows that! Not all do!
This is mentioned just after 1 minute and 5 seconds of the video!! He also gives a hack for a certain type of controller with a mid motor, one pedal and a magnet. This guy really knows what he is doing!!
Basically, what you wrote is incorrect, and changing the wheel size, IF POSSIBLE, on the controller, DOES affect the top speed and the mileage counter as well.
Andy
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,994
Basildon
Interesting, but how will the controller KNOW the actual wheel size in use? That is the fundamental thing needed, to allow it to stay at the correct speed limit! "An all seeing Eyeball" in the controller maybe?
I would be seriously MOST interested in just how a controller "knows" which wheel size is in use on a bike.
The sensors for speed are partly the hall effect sensors for revolutions and the wheel diameter, which can easily be altered on some controllers by the user....
Some of them use a magnet on a spoke, but the controller still does not know the size of the actual wheel in use! IT CANNOT!
I also found that certain types of controllers only allow fine adjustment of wheel size, plus/minus 5%, just to get the speed indication correct, but you are not able to change the physical wheel size.
I looked on YouTube and found this:-
But this bike mechanic, tells it JUST AS I SURMISED, is to simply change the wheel diameter, that is if the controller allows that! Not all do!
This is mentioned just after 1 minute and 5 seconds of the video!! He also gives a hack for a certain type of controller with a mid motor, one pedal and a magnet. This guy really knows what he is doing!!
Basically, what you wrote is incorrect, and changing the wheel size, IF POSSIBLE, on the controller, DOES affect the top speed and the mileage counter as well.
Andy
Forget about trawling the internet and confusing yourself all the time. You only have to ask us. The controller knows the wheel size when it's programmed into it, otherwise it doesn't, and it doesn't care too much about it either. It always has a speed signal from the motor halls. You can change the wheel size in the LCD, but it has no effect on the motor speed. The motor speed is either locked to a speed limit or not. Changing the wheel size can fool the lock in some controllers, but not in others. Either way, it doesn't change any characteristics of the motor.

Not very common these days, but quite common 7 or 8 years ago, some controllers could boost the motor's speed by about 10% by changing the timing. It did something like keep the low side MOSFETs open longer. It was operated by a simple jumper, which you could put a switch on. You might hear it referred to as a three speed switch, as there was a second jumper that could lock the maximum speed to 15 mph that was based on a 201 rpm signal from the motor halls. Both jumpers go to ground, so with switch left, low speed was grounded, middle none and right, boost jumper grounded.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
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Forget about trawling the internet and confusing yourself all the time.
I am not the confused one here, you are. I have noticed this in your posts, time and time again. It is MOST obvious to anyone with a strong electrical and mechanical background.
You really do not have a clue. But you are rude each and every time to me, instead of treating my posts as e-bike 101 electrics!
Remember, I supply links, where my thoughts are exactly spoken out loud, by other, educated people on the video, EXACTLY SO!
Where are the links that support you? You supply NOTHING at all with regard to links! Only rudeness and ignorance....
You also post mostly rubbish with regard to electricity and electronics, half learned, but very little facts, the Brothers Grimm could have hired you!
Sadly, there are few here who have the necessary schooling to see that apparently, but the complete lack of supporting links should count for something. START SUPPLYING LINKS AND STOP WRITING FAIRY TALES.
You only have to ask us.
Who is "US"? I do not see anyone else posting such appalling "facts"....
The controller knows the wheel size when it's programmed into it, otherwise it doesn't, and it doesn't care too much about it either. It always has a speed signal from the motor halls.
That Hall effect sensor signal has only motor revolution information, but nothing to do with "speed" of the bike. As it still does not contain information with regard to the wheel diameter.

That was the point I have been trying to make, and now you are slowly coming around. Hurrah, Hurrah!

To know bike speed, the controller MUST know both the wheel diameter and the motor RPM, then you have the speed. Changing one of these parameters, changes the speed achieved.

You can change the wheel size in the LCD, but it has no effect on the motor speed.
That sentence is badly written, if the motor speed remains the same, but the wheel size is physically changed, the speed of the bike changes as well. Simple!
The opposite is also true, that is if the wheel diameter remains the same, BUT THE CONTROLLER IS TOLD THAT IS HAS CHANGED, for the same motor RPM, the actual bike speed changes, because the controller changes the RPM of the motor.
I strongly suspect that you did not watch and listen fully to the links I posted, or you would probably not have posted at all in the way you have.
The motor speed is either locked to a speed limit or not. Changing the wheel size can fool the lock in some controllers, but not in others. Either way, it doesn't change any characteristics of the motor.
You do not understand that in controllers (not all) that can be setup to different "physical size" wheels, that results in a change to the actual top speed achieved, but the controller is so simple, as it simply "believes" it has reached the maximum legal speed for that programmed wheel size.

Not very common these days, but quite common 7 or 8 years ago, some controllers could boost the motor's speed by about 10% by changing the timing. It did something like keep the low side MOSFETs open longer. It was operated by a simple jumper, which you could put a switch on. You might hear it referred to as a three speed switch, as there was a second jumper that could lock the maximum speed to 15 mph that was based on a 201 rpm signal from the motor halls. Both jumpers go to ground, so with switch left, low speed was grounded, middle none and right, boost jumper grounded.
That is all simply total rubbish nowaydays. And if you really believe you are placing valid information here, you really need to see a psychologist, really! That was just blue flashes and smoke, nothing useful! Nothing factual.
Here is something simple, valid, accurate and easy to undertstand, for a controller that can be programmed and used on bikes with 24, 26 and 28 wheels, remember though, not all controllers can be so programmed.
If we compare the diameter differences of 28, 26 and 24 inch heels, you get the following distances traveled by one revolution of the wheel, using Pi as 3.14 for simplicity:-
28 = 87.92" = 223.3168 cm.
26 = 81.64" = 207.3656cm.
24 = 75.36" = 191.4144cm.

If we take the 24" wheel as being 100%, then the other sizes produce AT THE SAME MOTOR RPM, the following increase in speed:-
26" wheel 61.50% more speed.
28" wheel 66.25% more speed.
So programming a bike with 28" wheels, to be only 24 inch wheels in the controller setup, the controller will set the motor RPM to allow a 24" wheel to achieve 15.5 MPH, instead, the bike will attempt to go at 25.8 MPH, because the controller believes the wheels are only 24", so they need to turned much faster to achieve legal speed!!
The controller has been fooled!
That is quite a speed increase with very little being changed other than a value in the setup!!
(All rounded off to the nearest 0.1MPH!)
Please address the points I made directly, do not go off at a tangent (thats called "deflecting" by the way, not good, it makes you look severely biased at bestt.
You need to post good valid links that support your actual thoughts and theories.
I do sincerely recommend that you watch the two videos I posted first, as both know what they are talking about!
Andy
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,655
17,445
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
vfr400 has extensive knowledge of bikes and e-bikes.
He certainly knows more than me.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,655
17,445
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
"A man with one eye is king in the land of the blind!"
there is some truth in what you say but you can check his joining date and his postings. He has good credentials.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,994
Basildon
I am not the confused one here, you are. I have noticed this in your posts, time and time again. It is MOST obvious to anyone with a strong electrical and mechanical background.
You really do not have a clue. But you are rude each and every time to me, instead of treating my posts as e-bike 101 electrics!
Remember, I supply links, where my thoughts are exactly spoken out loud, by other, educated people on the video, EXACTLY SO!
Where are the links that support you? You supply NOTHING at all with regard to links! Only rudeness and ignorance....
You also post mostly rubbish with regard to electricity and electronics, half learned, but very little facts, the Brothers Grimm could have hired you!
Sadly, there are few here who have the necessary schooling to see that apparently, but the complete lack of supporting links should count for something. START SUPPLYING LINKS AND STOP WRITING FAIRY TALES.

Who is "US"? I do not see anyone else posting such appalling "facts"....
That Hall effect sensor signal has only motor revolution information, but nothing to do with "speed" of the bike. As it still does not contain information with regard to the wheel diameter.

That was the point I have been trying to make, and now you are slowly coming around. Hurrah, Hurrah!

To know bike speed, the controller MUST know both the wheel diameter and the motor RPM, then you have the speed. Changing one of these parameters, changes the speed achieved.


That sentence is badly written, if the motor speed remains the same, but the wheel size is physically changed, the speed of the bike changes as well. Simple!
The opposite is also true, that is if the wheel diameter remains the same, BUT THE CONTROLLER IS TOLD THAT IS HAS CHANGED, for the same motor RPM, the actual bike speed changes, because the controller changes the RPM of the motor.
I strongly suspect that you did not watch and listen fully to the links I posted, or you would probably not have posted at all in the way you have.

You do not understand that in controllers (not all) that can be setup to different "physical size" wheels, that results in a change to the actual top speed achieved, but the controller is so simple, as it simply "believes" it has reached the maximum legal speed for that programmed wheel size.


That is all simply total rubbish nowaydays. And if you really believe you are placing valid information here, you really need to see a psychologist, really! That was just blue flashes and smoke, nothing useful! Nothing factual.
Here is something simple, valid, accurate and easy to undertstand, for a controller that can be programmed and used on bikes with 24, 26 and 28 wheels, remember though, not all controllers can be so programmed.
If we compare the diameter differences of 28, 26 and 24 inch heels, you get the following distances traveled by one revolution of the wheel, using Pi as 3.14 for simplicity:-
28 = 87.92" = 223.3168 cm.
26 = 81.64" = 207.3656cm.
24 = 75.36" = 191.4144cm.

If we take the 24" wheel as being 100%, then the other sizes produce AT THE SAME MOTOR RPM, the following increase in speed:-
26" wheel 61.50% more speed.
28" wheel 66.25% more speed.
So programming a bike with 28" wheels, to be only 24 inch wheels in the controller setup, the controller will set the motor RPM to allow a 24" wheel to achieve 15.5 MPH, instead, the bike will attempt to go at 25.8 MPH, because the controller believes the wheels are only 24", so they need to turned much faster to achieve legal speed!!
The controller has been fooled!
That is quite a speed increase with very little being changed other than a value in the setup!!
(All rounded off to the nearest 0.1MPH!)
Please address the points I made directly, do not go off at a tangent (thats called "deflecting" by the way, not good, it makes you look severely biased at bestt.
You need to post good valid links that support your actual thoughts and theories.
I do sincerely recommend that you watch the two videos I posted first, as both know what they are talking about!
Andy
You can paste as large a wall of text as you like. You're only digging yourself deeper into your hole.

Let's go back to start. OP wants a motor to go 400rpm without much torque. You told him that he can get that by changing the wheel size in his controller. That's completely wrong. Nothing more to say.

I was trying to help you learn how things work, but some people seem to be incapable of learning.
 
D

Deleted member 25121

Guest
Interesting, but how will the controller KNOW the actual wheel size in use? That is the fundamental thing needed, to allow it to stay at the correct speed limit! "An all seeing Eyeball" in the controller maybe?
I would be seriously MOST interested in just how a controller "knows" which wheel size is in use on a bike.
The sensors for speed are partly the hall effect sensors for revolutions and the wheel diameter, which can easily be altered on some controllers by the user....
Some of them use a magnet on a spoke, but the controller still does not know the size of the actual wheel in use! IT CANNOT!
I also found that certain types of controllers only allow fine adjustment of wheel size, plus/minus 5%, just to get the speed indication correct, but you are not able to change the physical wheel size.
I looked on YouTube and found this:-
But this bike mechanic, tells it JUST AS I SURMISED, is to simply change the wheel diameter, that is if the controller allows that! Not all do!
This is mentioned just after 1 minute and 5 seconds of the video!! He also gives a hack for a certain type of controller with a mid motor, one pedal and a magnet. This guy really knows what he is doing!!
Basically, what you wrote is incorrect, and changing the wheel size, IF POSSIBLE, on the controller, DOES affect the top speed and the mileage counter as well.
Andy
I wonder, do you believe everything you see using Google? I'm not saying that the contents of your Youtube links are incorrect, I can't be bothered to watch them, but you seem to suggest that if something shows up using Google it must be correct.