A ray of hope?

[Straylight]

Nissan have obviously found it ecconomically viable to use the UK as a base for battery production: BBC NEWS | Business | Nissan to create hundreds of jobs. I wonder if this could be the start of a trend that would see cheap(er) e-bike batteries being made here too.....Pure speculation I know, but it's a cheering thought .

 

[flecc]

I saw this good news on the BBC midday news edition, but as ever the vital detail is lacking, battery type involved for example.

At the moment I only know of two production e-cars using LiFePO4, BYD and the Chrysler Volt, both petrol electrics. Smart and the Think car use sodium batteries and neither are on general sale yet. Mitsubishi have prototypes using Li-ion and possibly LiFePO4 later, but nothing on the general market yet, so I don't know what type of battery Nissan are thinking of. They have been experimenting with complex-compound-cathode lithium batteries though.

As for e-bike batteries, it's a nice thought but little chance at present. There are just too many different battery types spread across too few e-bike sales, and Europe already has a well established lithium battery producer in Germany who supply BionX in the e-bike field.
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[Straylight]

In the BBC article it says the plant will be making Li-ion batteries, but I suppose this could mean a number of things.

 

[flecc]

That's right, it could mean any of several types, rigid cell or polymer, single material or compound cathode or LiFePO4.

Trouble is that there aren't any electric cars or hybrids using any of those in the UK or Europe at the moment, so I cannot understand what lies behind the intention and this big investment.

All very puzzling.
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[Straylight]

Indeed, but as far as I know, Nissan haven't announced an electric car of their own yet - Micra EV perhaps?

 

[Straylight]

Nope - I lied...

nissan electric car nuvu concept

"laminated lithium-ion battery" aparently.

 

[flecc]

That's probably only a concept as yet though, all the car manufacturers have those, but they change annually!

The nearest to general market release here are the Smart for two with sodium battery, a couple of hundred on trial with selected users, and the Ford backed Think Car also on trials.

The Chrysler Volt may get here eventually, likewise the BYD.

The only reason I can think for that Nissan battery program is a scheme for battery cars in Israel which is intended for the USA later. This is an "instant change of battery to refuel" scheme, and the cars together with the automatic battery changing unit for service stations are being designed by Renault.

The connection? Renault own Nissan.
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[Straylight]

Well, the concept is just that, but it's also a fully working tech demo for a car to be launched in 2010, so both could be true. The only problem with electric cars is that I won't be able to hear them comming! On saying that, with the wind I didn't hear the VW bus with the seemingly stoned driver (I'd guess on their way home from 'Latitude') that tried to run me off the road today

 

[flecc]

it's also a fully working tech demo for a car to be launched in 2010,

Something I've seen so many, many times.

The Smart was going to be on general sale four years ago, we're still waiting. The Mitsubishi Electric version of the i-car was going to be on sale three years ago but has now been put back a further year yet again due to lithium battery problems. Now where have we heard that before!

E-cars have been all about failed promises for years and I'm a total cynic where they are concerned. I refuse to believe anything published on availability until a model will actually be in showrooms and on general sale.
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[fishingpaul]

Something I've seen so many, many times.

The Smart was going to be on general sale four years ago, we're still waiting. The Mitsubishi Electric version of the i-car was going to be on sale three years ago but has now been put back a further year yet again due to lithium battery problems. Now where have we heard that before!

E-cars have been all about failed promises for years and I'm a total cynic where they are concerned. I refuse to believe anything published on availability until a model will actually be in showrooms and on general sale.
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I have to agree ,i cannot see a cost effective electric car coming onto the market,they are at present too expensive compared too petrol engined cars, and the cost of replacement batteries is enough to put anyone off.

 

[Straylight]

As with all electric vehicles, the weak link is still the battery, both in terms of cost and capacity/performance. Once a cheap, long range system is developed, then electric cars will seem a viable proposition to the general population, and mass production will bring the costs down. This in combination with a standard battery pack that can can be swapped in secconds en route will be key to making them a success. I just hope the planners & legislators can get the infrastructure in place before the whole thing is discarded by public oppinion. As I believe at the moment, the jury's still out.

 

[Barnowl]

I discarded it years ago and I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

 

[Straylight]

It is a shame though, as everything else is there, including motors that are far more efficient than their oil burning counterparts (the ammount of noise and heat produced by standard engines is frankly ridiculous IMHO). I feel that if the economic 'crisis' had come a few years later, then the oportunity to change the mindset of a lot of people could have been seized. As it is, when the cash starts to flow again, so the minds of the traditional motorists will close. It's so sad that the Eco arguments only get heeded when it's conveinient via financial incientive, but then we are greedy, selfish apes after all.

 

[flecc]

It is a shame though, as everything else is there, including motors that are far more efficient than their oil burning counterparts

There was some truth in this more than a century ago, but not now. Few realise that in the early days of the motor vehicle, steam and electric competed on equal terms with ic engines and those alternatives were often preferred. Electric vans and lorries ran on our roads for more than the first 30 years of the last century, and truck size electric vans ran post WW2 for three decades in London, delivering for Harrods and John Lewis.

However, the efficiency of the ic engine has always won, it's power to weight ratio being infinitely better. Electric vehicles of any kind can only compete if they get their electricity from an external source like a live rail or overhead lines.
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[Straylight]

Yes, but you're talking about the system as a whole, including power source, I was refering to the motor/engine as a type of transducer. And I belive in terms of joules in to joules out in the form of kinetic energy, the motor wins, as I read somewhere that the ic engine in these terms is arund 20% efficient. The rest of the energy released from the oil lost as heat etc. Conversely David from Wisper rates his new motor at 80%.

This is what I was saying with regard to the power source being the weak link in the electric car's drivetrain, so in that sense we are in agreement. As for the weight issue, I think this is a case of gradual refinement, an ic engines in this application have a large head start of many decades. Even so, I expect the development to be somewhat accelerated, due in part to the fact that we're living in more modern times, but also due to a greater need and sense of urgency.

 

[Barnowl]

I feel that if the economic 'crisis' had come a few years later, then the oportunity to change the mindset of a lot of people could have been seized. As it is, when the cash starts to flow again, so the minds of the traditional motorists will close. It's so sad that the Eco arguments only get heeded when it's conveinient via financial incientive, but then we are greedy, selfish apes after all.

I don't think the economic crisis has anything to do with it. The internal combustion engine is brilliant. The only problem is there's far too many people using them.
As for electric cars more than 80% of the UK's electricity comes from burning coal, oil and gas, the fossil fuels which produce the carbon emissions which are widely believed to be a major contributor to climate change.
Renewable, or 'green' electricity, accounts for just 4% of total UK electricity production. The government is tasked to increase that per centage to meet a target of 15% by 2015. I think that by 2015 we'll be using way more electricity anyway. I've no idea how efficient the total process of burning coal, oil and gas and converting it to electricity and transporting it into a battery to drive your average 1.5 ton car is but I'm guessing petrol and deisel beat it easily in every sense.
Best bet is use the car less and spend more time on the sofa watching TV.

 

[flecc]

Yes, but you're talking about the system as a whole, including power source,

Of course, since that's the only way it can work, there's no point in excluding the fuel, so ic is far more efficient, which is why it's won.

I think this is a case of gradual refinement, an ic engines in this application have a large head start of many decades. Even so, I expect the development to be somewhat accelerated, due in part to the fact that we're living in more modern times, but also due to a greater need and sense of urgency.

I'm afraid its not that easy. Electric motors and batteries are up against fundamental physics in a far more restrictive way that ic engines ever have been. As I said, they were equal and often better a century ago, but it was the severe restriction of the basic physics that left electric far behind. The progress on motors has been relatively small over the last century, despite the large amount of effort that is put into electric transport. It's a mistake to think of the limited research into cars and bikes as representative, diesel electric and pure electric on railway and light rail (tram) systems have been continuously developed for three quarters of a century and still are being.

Batteries are likewise getting quite close to the limit of physical possibility, the fundamental physical laws can't be changed, and that's why loopholes like rapid battery changes to give range are being explored. That's not improvement or greater efficiency, it's just a way to avoid an insoluble science problem.
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[Straylight]

As I said, we are in agreement with regard to the power source, due to the extreemely volatile nature of refined oil, its energetic pottential is huge, but there is no way of tapping this that doesn't involve an enormous waste of that very energy. Even so, the small ammount we are capable of transfering into motive force is more than enough to push a car around.

This was why I was drawing the distinction between battery and motor, as the motor itself is quite a marvelous piece of kit. It also doesn't care where it gets its electrons from as long as they come in sufficient number, with the right EMF. So my original point still stands about the battery being the weak link in the chain. Therefore the answer lies in efficient electrical production/storage.

Twenty years ago, not many outside the scientific community had ever heard the term 'fuel cell', which has now become part of the common language, and research into such devices continues apace. Hopefuly the next genneration will begin to reap the benefits of such increasingly commercialy viable endevours, and that we are on the brink of a new industrial revolution. There's also the emotive angle to consider, in that in our complacency we've allowed ourselves to be drawn in to a deep and childish lust affair with all things that go 'vroom' - time to grow out of this I feel.

Who knows, maybe we'll all be riding round with miniature nuclear fusion reactors under our seats...

 

[Mussels]

Best bet is use the car less and spend more time on the sofa watching TV.

With the electric bike my car usage has dwindled to almost nothing but shopping, home delivery is cheap so I've decided to get rid of my car and just rent one when I need it.
I'm a little nervous but with 3 car rental places, town centre and the train station within a 10 minute walk I don't see the need to keep paying for a car.
The idea of renting the right vehicle for the job when I need it is rather appealing.

 

[flecc]

Therefore the answer lies in efficient electrical production/storage.

Twenty years ago, not many outside the scientific community had ever heard the term 'fuel cell'

Same applies there though, no matter how much research there is, the fundamental physical laws cannot be bypassed. We need to be in another universe! Batteries are not far off the limit and fuel cells suffer some similar restrictions. Fuel cells aren't new anyway, NiMh batteries are fuel cells.

Who knows, maybe we'll all be riding round with miniature nuclear fusion reactors under our seats...

You love clashing with physical laws.

It's in the fundamental nature of nuclear fission that the reactor volume cannot be made small, anything below about 12 foot internal dimensions becoming increasingly wasteful of the potential energy. Ships ok, road transport not.
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