A ray of hope?

[Straylight]

It was a joke!! And I said fUsion Oh, and I know that fuel cells have been around a long time, I believe they were first demonstrated in 1839

Science fiction is only that until somebody actualy builds it - look at some of Arthur C. Clake's early stuff...

 

[Barnowl]

With the electric bike my car usage has dwindled to almost nothing but shopping, home delivery is cheap so I've decided to get rid of my car and just rent one when I need it.
I'm a little nervous but with 3 car rental places, town centre and the train station within a 10 minute walk I don't see the need to keep paying for a car.
The idea of renting the right vehicle for the job when I need it is rather appealing.

I've considered renting cars as well. It's a great idea if your circumstances are right. Due to other considerations, largely to do with off site buisness travel, mine really aren't. My own car use has been substantially reduced though. For local travel bikes really are the way to go and I can't help thinking all those people driving around in cars for 2, 3, 4 mile journeys have have got it all very, very wrong.

Flecc

Straylight said fusion not fission. As we all know its cold and comes in a flask - ideal for electric bike usage.


Sorry Straylight posts clashed

 

[torrent99]

Same applies there though, no matter how much research there is, the fundamental physical laws cannot be bypassed. We need to be in another universe!
.

Ok I'll try battering some physical laws in a totally and completely untheoretical and impractical way.

Hydrogen can be thought of as a substance that stores energy, that can be released for example in a fuel cell or IC type engine.

Petrol is similar, a liquid that stores energy and releases it via an IC engine. Of course petrol has a MUCH higher energy density than hydrogen.

So I can see 2 interesting avenues to explore:

* Development of a substance that stores much more energy than hydrogen that can be used in an "electricity producing device". Then drive the vehicle with an electric motor.
* Development of a means to extract the energy from "petrol" into electricity, that is as efficient as a fuel cell... (to get much better use of our petrol than the IC does)

Discuss...
(extra points for answers that manage to remain upbeat about the whole situation )

 

[flecc]

It was a joke!! And I said fUsion Oh, and I know that fuel cells have been around a long time, I believe they were first demonstrated in 1839

Science fiction is only that until somebody actualy builds it - look at some of Arthur C. Clake's early stuff...

I did guess you were joking, but misread fusion which is a joke anyway at present and may always be in viable terms.

That science fiction point is often made, but there's no opposing the fundamentals of our universe's physics and no amount of development and research alters that.

We'll see some physically limited personal e-vehicles in future for a short period, but the future beyond that is far more likely to have mass transport systems and little motorised personal transport. The more crowded our planet gets, the more easily that will come about of course.
.

 

[torrent99]

We'll see some physically limited personal e-vehicles in future for a short period, but the future beyond that is far more likely to have mass transport systems and little motorised personal transport. The more crowded our planet gets, the more easily that will come about of course.
.

Interesting thought that. My own thoughts are that with "autonomous" vehicles starting to appear (at least in the military world), we might eventually end up with hybrid mass/personal transport. i.e. a car that is able to hop on to a "train" for longer journeys.

Cars that can drive themselves should improve efficiency too by cooperating with each other to avoid stop/start driving.

 

[flecc]

* Development of a substance that stores much more energy than hydrogen that can be used in an "electricity producing device". Then drive the vehicle with an electric motor.

We're back to science fiction again! Would we still use such an antiquated device as an electric motor in this hypothetical future?

* Development of a means to extract the energy from "petrol" into electricity, that is as efficient as a fuel cell... (to get much better use of our petrol than the IC does)

Not much point since "petrol" and so many alternatives are non-renewable finite resources, many running out.

As I said in my previous answer, I think the future will increasingly be one of mass transport which has much greater flexibility in the power forms that can be used. That's already the preferred option of many governments since it has the potential to solve so many problems of regulation, crime and social control as well as the huge range of specific problems that independent personal transport brings.

Whether that's upbeat or downbeat will depend on each individuals point of view on such matters.

Crossed with your above answer Torrent99.
.

 

[Barnowl]

So a rosy future for the humble bicycle then Extra points for me for being upbeat.

"i.e. a car that is able to hop on to a "train" for longer journeys."

Scalextrics spring to mind.

 

[Straylight]

Nothing humble about my bike

I was only thinking today whilst riding, how nice it is to be in a different speed strata from all those agressive nutters in their cars. Maybe if they weren't allowed direct control of all that noise and momentum, they might have a little patience, and take the time to look around themselves once in a while. So I think I'm in favour of autonomous high speed transportation.

A computer doesn't get frustrated, tired, drunk, distracted, impatient, have an ego, or forget it's pulling a trailer, so I'd much rather have one overtake me than a human.

 

[Barnowl]

Nothing humble about my bike

A computer doesn't get frustrated, tired, drunk, distracted, impatient, have an ego, or forget it's pulling a trailer, so I'd much rather have one overtake me than a human.

I wouldn't let my computer anywhere near high speed transportation

 

[torrent99]

I wouldn't let my computer anywhere near high speed transportation

You already do, in most cars there's no such thing as an accelerator cable, it's all controlled by the engine computer, you merely request more or less acceleration...

There's already computer controlled transport in daily use, try talking to the driver on the Docklands Light Railway.

 

[Barnowl]

Sorry I specifically meant MY computer. Mind you I still wouldn't trust a computer in control of "autonomous" high speed transportation even if it doesn't get frustrated, tired, drunk, distracted, impatient, or have an ego. I'll wager that by the time they can chauffer me around in a fast car they'll have the software equivalent of all those problems.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Of course, since that's the only way it can work, there's no point in excluding the fuel, so ic is far more efficient, which is why it's won.



I'm afraid its not that easy. Electric motors and batteries are up against fundamental physics in a far more restrictive way that ic engines ever have been. As I said, they were equal and often better a century ago, but it was the severe restriction of the basic physics that left electric far behind. The progress on motors has been relatively small over the last century, despite the large amount of effort that is put into electric transport. It's a mistake to think of the limited research into cars and bikes as representative, diesel electric and pure electric on railway and light rail (tram) systems have been continuously developed for three quarters of a century and still are being.

Batteries are likewise getting quite close to the limit of physical possibility, the fundamental physical laws can't be changed, and that's why loopholes like rapid battery changes to give range are being explored. That's not improvement or greater efficiency, it's just a way to avoid an insoluble science problem.
.

I'm not so sure about this and I've got university physics under my belt. There's still scope for roughly an order of magnitude improvement in batteries. Not much more than that though. Petrol stores about 10,000 watt hours a litre. Current Li ion sits at 100-160 Wh. Considering how little of a cars mass is given over to the gas tank, combining a better battery with a bigger battery would give ranges sufficient for most people most of the time. A 60 mile electric range combined with a algae oil burning IC engine would pretty much be a game changer.

I read an interesting paper about plug in hybrids. The authors believed that they'd become mainstream not merely for economic reasons but for reasons of performance. The bigger higher voltage batteries will run car systems better than currently possible. Better a/c, power steering, automatic transmissions, louder stereos, car entertainment etc. In time the currently expensive addition will be like most of the above features: Demanded by the consumer.

 

[flecc]

There's still scope for roughly an order of magnitude improvement in batteries. Not much more than that though. Petrol stores about 10,000 watt hours a litre. Current Li ion sits at 100-160 Wh. Considering how little of a cars mass is given over to the gas tank, combining a better battery with a bigger battery would give ranges sufficient for most people most of the time. A 60 mile electric range combined with a algae oil burning IC engine would pretty much be a game changer.

Hybrids yes, but I was speaking of the potential for getting away from ic engines completely as Straylight was, not still using them.

I agree that batteries still have room for a good percentage increase in performance, but that's nothing like sufficient for viable electric cars. What's needed for e-cars to directly compete with ic engine ones is a large multiple of present weight/volumetric efficiency, and that's what I say is not possible.
.

 

[Barnowl]

I wonder if the bike will outlive the internal combustion engine. Maybe Star Trek got it all wrong and bamboo bikes are the future.

 

[Straylight]

I think it will, as it's a far more efficient technology, with (aside from manufacture/shipping for retail) virtually no environmental impact. So if we could all build our own from scratch, it'd be perfect! Now there's a niche market, locally sourced bamboo bike kits...hmmm

 

[Straylight]

The internal combustion engine is brilliant. The only problem is there's far too many people using them.

As an interesting aside, I personally agree with (most of ) this statement. I think that many office based jobs, given today's level of communication technology, could just as easily be done from home, and that there should be large incentives for people to do this, as it would render an awful lot of car journeys completely redundant.

Of course the downside is that the roads would truly become the province of men in white vans

Equally interesting is this quote:

The production of electricity for trains creates up to 35% less carbon than burning the equivalent amount of diesel.

from this article:BBC NEWS | UK | £1bn plan to electrify rail line

 

[Barnowl]

As an interesting aside, I personally agree with (most of ) this statement. I think that many office based jobs, given today's level of communication technology, could just as easily be done from home, and that there should be large incentives for people to do this, as it would render an awful lot of car journeys completely redundant.

Of course the downside is that the roads would truly become the province of men in white vans

Local traffic this morning was extremely low. Great ride into work. The kids have broken up for the school holidays . I've come to the conclusion that for many towns and cities school runs and local shopping trips are a bigger problem than commuters.
Home working is quite widespread in our company and there are quite a few initiatives to cut down on travel and go green with recent investments in videoconferencing, dynamic pcs and of course shipping jobs of to India . There's also been quite substantial use of audioconferencing, messaging etc over recent years and even the use a Prius taxi fleet to get us to the airport. Companies do love to cut cost and if that coincides with promoting a green image it's a double whammy.

 

[flecc]

As you've discussed Barnowl and Straylight, these are definitely more sensible ways for the future, far less individual unnecessary travelling and better, more widespread mass transport systems.

Policies are muddled and unfocused though, just as we get more companies allowing home workers, we are introducing centralisation in other areas which creates more need to travel. For example, polyclinics which often force long journeys, instead of keeping local GP practices; planning restrictions which block in-town development and force superstores to be built out of town; private partnership large specialised schools and colleges which can greatly increase pupil/parent travel; parental choice of schools bringing longer school journeys instead of pupils attending their nearest school as always used to be the case.

As for the ordinary bicycle, I think it will outlive all other current forms of personal transport, nothing else will ever be as cheap and efficient.
.