Advances in battery technology

[coops]

Ok, I think I'm getting a clearer picture of the Lithium variants now:

The two types Li-ion and, newer, Li-ion-polymer differ in use of ion exchange plastic film & gel electrolyte, but can have essentially the same chemistry i.e. its a different construction, but possibly same chemicals.

The different chemistries include cobalt (older & unstable), manganese dioxide (MnO2) and Iron phosphate (FePO4) plus other cobalt mixtures are possible. Nanophosphate seems to be "nanoscale" (very small as you say flecc) lithium iron phosphate particles "subtly doped with metal ions, such as those of aluminum, niobium, manganese, and titanium".

Is this correct?

I think "konion" (Google says "Did you mean: onion" )are a proprietary brand of "kontronik" and are likely cobalt/nickel/mixed based Li-ion or Li-ion-polymer. Others like "emoli" - E-one/moli energy brand "molicel" are more clearly named, the "mo" part seems to reference the "manganese (di)oxide" it uses; "li" for lithium-ion. A123 and M1 batteries are nano- iron phosphate & seem to be ion, not ion-polymer?

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I'm not sure of the latter since I haven't been bothering with following proprietary claims Stuart, it's usually a waste of effort.

Yes, your summary in the first part is as I understand the position, and the term Nano was coined by Toshiba for the tiny particulate high density developments.

Nano seems to be a bit of a buzz word for anything very small these days, we'll have employees and trade unions describing salaries and pay rise offers in these terms any time now!
.

 

[coops]

Thanks flecc

I must say its a relief to have some clarity with the increasingly confusing number of Lithium battery variants, few of which are clearly described or identified.

Now just to wait for one of them to perform as well as they're claimed to in ebikes .

As for nano, yes it does seem to be getting everywhere... still, when it gets a bit outmoded, there's plenty more prefixes to go .

Anyone for an ipod pico, or femtophosphate batteries?

Stuart.

 

[Ian]

I beleive the starship Enterprise and her sister ships use di-lithium as a power source, I'm wondering when we'll see a di-lithium battery on a bike... or protanium on the enterprise.

 

[coops]

I'm wondering when we'll see a di-lithium battery on a bike...

Probably just as soon as they're fitted with plasma coils... and the di-lithium mines up their production...

...or protanium on the enterprise.

Now that's just too far-fetched! a bit like this thread is in danger of becoming!

Stuart.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Now that's just too far-fetched! a bit like this thread is in danger of becoming Quite right stuart all as they used to say in the 70s Beam me up scotty

 

[Ian]

Probably just as soon as they're fitted with plasma coils... and the di-lithium mines up their production...

The plasma coils on my bike are the are the arteries in my legs, and I think the di-lithium mines are owned by the nickel miners, so like the nickel mines they will limit production and raise prices. We should call in the federation

 

[flecc]

Now just to wait for one of them to perform as well as they're claimed to in ebikes

Stuart.

They probably already are, when the power delivery to motor consumption maximum is always a positive ratio, as it's likely to be in the Powacycle Salisbury and Windsor Li-polymer models. Their 24 volt 10.5 Ah is probably comfortable with around 300 watts peak consumption under load.

The 500, 576 and 680 watts consumption peaks under load on three popular models can be a bit much for their 36 volt 10 Ah batteries. If they could have a 13 Ah battery, ironically possible in the space with the older Li-ion Cobalt batteries they'd be ok, but I upset the manufacturer so much by mentioning that fact, they haven't been in the forum ever since!
.

 

[prState]

With some questions about the Lithium battery peformance, I started wondering about the "big river ride" 2000 mile ride along the Mississippi (some here may be familiar with it) and whether he used a Nimh battery or a li-on? Although I read through that once, I didn't feel like re-reading to find out, it didn't seem to mention it on the bike part.

If he was using a lithium though, it seems hard to imagine he was being careful not to run the battery too low. And if so, I don't remember anything being mentioned about shortened life or anything. But then maybe had a nimh?

Anyone know off hand?

 

[flecc]

With some questions about the Lithium battery peformance, I started wondering about the "big river ride" 2000 mile ride along the Mississippi (some here may be familiar with it) and whether he used a Nimh battery or a li-on? Although I read through that once, I didn't feel like re-reading to find out, it didn't seem to mention it on the bike part.

If he was using a lithium though, it seems hard to imagine he was being careful not to run the battery too low. And if so, I don't remember anything being mentioned about shortened life or anything. But then maybe had a nimh?

Anyone know off hand?

I don't know, but probably Lithium and not worrying about the battery. Fully discharging only loses capacity over time, doubling it in a year in the worst case, so it wouldn't have affected his ride. Also the range would have been maximum and the loading on the battery very low due to the terrain.

He was following the river downstream, so fractionally downhill all the way, and that river's floodplain is one of the world's largest, so not exactly hilly roads at the side when following it.
.

 

[HarryB]

The 500, 576 and 680 watts consumption peaks under load on three popular models can be a bit much for their 36 volt 10 Ah batteries. If they could have a 13 Ah battery, ironically possible in the space with the older Li-ion Cobalt batteries they'd be ok, but I upset the manufacturer so much by mentioning that fact, they haven't been in the forum ever since!
.

Flecc,

Just out of interest what do you think is the peak power of the Torq when restricted - not 576 Watts surely (doesn't feel like it compare to derestricted anyway). The battery certainly copes reasonably well when restricted.

 

[flecc]

The maximum power derestricted is reached as the bike reaches the point of maximum torque, and on the Torq that's at 12 mph, that point mainly used when climbing of course.

I don't know, but it could be that the limiter is phasing it down gradually before the 15 mph cut-off, since that's what European law demands. That's likely considering the range gain when restricted Harry. Considering the way the battery copes then, it's likely to be around 450 watts, not much more.
.

 

[Ian]

With some questions about the Lithium battery peformance, I started wondering about the "big river ride" 2000 mile ride along the Mississippi (some here may be familiar with it) and whether he used a Nimh battery or a li-on? Although I read through that once, I didn't feel like re-reading to find out, it didn't seem to mention it on the bike part.

If he was using a lithium though, it seems hard to imagine he was being careful not to run the battery too low. And if so, I don't remember anything being mentioned about shortened life or anything. But then maybe had a nimh?

Anyone know off hand?

I did follow the ride in detail at the time and don't recall any mention of battery type. There were several mentions of lunchtime recharges and obviously the battery was charged during overnight stops. It's worth considering that the rider is a very fit and experienced cyclist, having crossed Australia on a conventional bike, and would probably only be using assist on particularly difficult bits, thereby getting far greater range than most of us.

 

[Quicken]

Added a new one to the OP.
Cheers,
Q

 

[giguana]

a new technology will come which is at least as good as lithium polymer and safe and long-lasting, and judging by how many laptops are recalled, there must be a lot of research into high-power batteries. there has been a fantastic increase in technology from alkaline to cadmium to metal hydrides to polymer, battery capacity has multiplied by five in two decades. but the reason that everyone uses lead in cars is because it's a very cheap and reliable.

 

[flecc]

but the reason that everyone uses lead in cars is because it's a very cheap and reliable.

Or put another way, it works, nowt else does it so well.

So we're still stuck two centuries ago, such is "progress".

Therefore I don't have your touching faith in the emergence of something much better than Li-ion poly anytime soon.
.

 

[bersh]

unrelated to this post, but related to understanding lithium batteries

I am planning a trip on Southwest airlines in the US. They inform me that if my lithium 36v 9ah battery has more than 25grams (grains?) of lithium, I may not bring it as carryon or even as checked baggage. My bike is an IZIP Via Mezza Enlightened. Please help me to find out how much lithium it has in its battery. Thanks

These are the car technologies that I've referred to previously, the aim being ultra quick charges rather than very high energy density. From the electric bike users point of view, it's not the best news, for that's the opposite of what we need, which is energy density for range. The motor industry knows there's no chance of enough energy density for 300 mile ranges, so all the effort is to get charge times possible during frequent stops at around 80 to 100 mile intervals for one or two minutes or so each time.

Toshiba have done most of the early work in this direction and have twice announced availability in the following year, and they should be here with us now. They're not of course, and that's the trouble with these future promises, they never quite seem to make it in the manner described in the laboratory.

There will be advances of course, but I'm prepared to bet they'll be something like those to date, a very gradual improvement, which for us has meant a doubling of range over the last ten years The labs keep quiet about the disadvantages of their developments, since it's continuing funding they need, so spin pays. So here's some examples:

The claims of huge numbers of charges and very long life for lithium batteries of various kinds all depend on minimal discharge depth. In other words, if a lithium rechargeable battery is designed for discharge of only a seventh of it's capacity each time, with immediate recharge, it can last for very many years. Only the words in bold are announced. This kind of use is in satellites today. That would mean us only doing about 3 or 4 miles at most before recharging

The claims of very high performance, in a sports car for example, are met by using vast numbers of tiny near AA size cells. I won't go into why that is, as the explanation is very long, but it's sufficient for you to know that the charger that has to be used for this setup is as big as a large room. Again, you only hear the words in bold.

Yes, I'm a cynic, but that cynicism is born of very long professional experience in many branches of technology, and I know the politics of development.

 

[NRG]

It varies I belive between different Lithium types but this article is interesting even though it doesn't answer your question directly: EV WORLD: How Much Lithium Does A Battery Really Need?

I think the airlines base their restriction on a calculated amount from the KWh of your battery there was some talk about this a few months ago but I can't find the thread...

 

[Chief eZee Power]

Bionx & eZee battery

I agree the makers of the expensive bikes really should put more effort into developing newer types, but they are often rather complacent. Just look at the ridiculous price BionX ask for their Li-ion battery, $900 in the USA. I can understand them not bothering if they can get away with prices like that for what they already have.

I am not inclined to expose others commercial secret informations or otherwise. We have available now the same battery from the same supplier (where they make the packs) as Bionx, and in fact the factory is about 10 miles from where we are. The cells are made by Samsung Korea, For exactly the same thing except the brand that is different, I guess or estimate the retail price would be about US$ 750 or about GBP 500.00

We have started to ship some of these to Switzerland and Germany. I would like to hear from the members what they think. With this I would be required to make a 2 year warranty ( I am not getting any premium to cover the risk ) , just that I would think this quality would handle the 2 years without me loosing too much sleep. By the way Samsung or the pack mfr would give only 12 months warranty, which means I have to absorb the 2nd year warranty.

A couple of batch of Sanyo we tried out in early 2008 are good till now, except for one complaint, we made a replacement, and have that questionable battery returned to us, but there was nothing wrong with it, and we are still using this battery to test run bikes at the final QC till now day in day out.

A123 till this date is still not interested in doing business with people like us.
Those development batteries discussed here would not be in ebikes for a good many years still. Except the Toshiba on the Schwinn Tailwind that has enjoyed incredible publicity or exposure fron the media but which I understand has been a total commercial failure, as I have imagine what you want to do with a ebike battery that is 120 Wh that cost more than $1000 ? The physical size of which is about the same as ours at 37V 14Ah = 518 Wh

Yours truly,
W W Ching

 

[Chief eZee Power]

Big River Ride

I did follow the ride in detail at the time and don't recall any mention of battery type. There were several mentions of lunchtime recharges and obviously the battery was charged during overnight stops. It's worth considering that the rider is a very fit and experienced cyclist, having crossed Australia on a conventional bike, and would probably only be using assist on particularly difficult bits, thereby getting far greater range than most of us.

It was a Phylion Li+ battery. I deliberately gave only one battery to him, so he would be forced to put the full stress on the battery, and there was not any problem. With the distance he has to cover, even a fit cyclist (he is not young) he empty out the battery everyday. So, made me feel confident about the battery, but that was a big mistake.

Yours truly
W W Ching