Advice about conversion kits please

[Oiseaux]

On a supplier of conversion kits website I have seen the phrase "Brushless planetary gear DC motor with clutch/freewheel" Does the 'clutch / freewheel' mean that there is no drag with the motor turned off?

 

[flecc]

Basically yes, the motor is disconnected from the hubshell and wheel on the overrun. For some odd reason though, many of us find more drag on e-bikes with these motors than on the crank drive and direct drive types, but it's difficult to ascertain what part of that is due to poor bike design. The Tongxin Nano hub motor is a notable exception in having almost zero drag in all conditions due to it having roller drive gear reduction instead of toothed gear reduction, but they have a worse reliability record.

In general all these have geared hub motors have freewheels, the exceptions being those intended for regeneration of power.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Basically yes, the motor is disconnected from the hubshell and wheel on the overrun. For some odd reason though, many of us find much more drag on e-bikes with these motors than on the crank drive and direct drive types.

In general all these have freewheels, the exceptions being those intended for regeneration of power.

I think that you've overstated that a little. You should change it to "Some of us find ......." because many of us don't notice the drag to be anything sinificant.

Oiseaux, You can make up your mind by looking at this vid of my motor, which is a standard cheapo Bafang 250w front.
YouTube - ‪Bafang‬‏

 

[flecc]

On past record I'm afraid the majority in this forum have found the drag to be significant d8veh, but of course these things are only of importance to each individual so each must try for themselves. Personally I've never found any SB motored bike to get anywhere near the freedom of running of a Panasonic powered bike, most for me being miserable to pedal without power.

 

[trex]

In general all these have geared hub motors have freewheels, the exceptions being those intended for regeneration of power.

Recharging the battery when going downhill? where can one find one of these motors?

 

[Cyclezee]

Recharging the battery when going downhill? where can one find one of these motors?

Here at BionX Bionx - Intelligent Mobility? systems

 

[flecc]

They are rare since they don't work brilliantly due to the lack of mass in an e-bike and rider.

The expensive BionX direct drive motor has four rider switched regeneration modes, but most owners appear to avoid using them.

Any direct drive motor can have a regenerating controller added to apply regeneration, and Banbury Frank (Xipi Dealer) in this forum can supply an Infineon one for that purpose, also direct drive motors.

Of course the usual freewheeled internally geared hub motors cannot regenerate since the motor doesn't turn on the overrun.

N.B. Crossed with John's post.

 

[Cyclezee]

There is also the Golden Motor Magic Pie direct drive motor with regenerative braking. A lot cheaper than BionX, but is it as good?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

On past record I'm afraid the majority in this forum have found the drag to be significant d8veh, but of course these things are only of importance to each individual so each must try for themselves. Personally I've never found any SB motored bike to get anywhere near the freedom of running of a Panasonic powered bike, most for me being miserable to pedal without power.

You keep making sweeping statements as if they're true! I am sure that you'll find that the vast majority didn't find it to be significant. There's no doubt that it's more friction than a Panasonic because a Panasonic doesn't have a motor connected to the front wheel. The question is whether the drag is significant. I'm sure, also, that we can find examples of where the drag was higher than normal because of tight seals - or whatever - that took a while to bed in, and, naturally, anybody that had a stiff one would report it, while as the vast majority, who never noticed any significant drag, kept quiet. I have three different versions of the Bafang 250w motor, and they are all the same and the same as any other one that I've been on - no noticeable drag. Are you sure you're not remembering the old days, when they didn't have clutches?
I can't think of anybody who bought a new hub-drive bike in the last six months ever commented that there was drag from the motor. All the ones that I remember said that they didn't notice any!

 

[banbury frank]

Hi D8veh

I think your posting is very funny
A quote from It

or whatever - that took a while to bed in, and, naturally, anybody that had a stiff one would report it,

Frank

 

[flecc]

You keep making sweeping statements as if they're true!

That's because they are true. I've been in this forum from day one and therefore remember the drift of posting trends, and I'm merely reporting that. I'm also quoting those SB motors with freewheels, mainly due to the forum only being in existence since September 2006.

Please don't be offended by what follows without reading it through. I am not counting your experience because it is extraordinary, and I'm basing that on your reporting a 70 mile range on a 36 volt 10 Ah battery at about 5 Wh per mile with an SB motored bike as nothing out of the ordinary. You must be a very special rider to achieve that since nobody else in this forum has ever reported similar results. The norm for most with SB motors is barely half that, 30 to 35 miles, or with the larger 14 Ah batteries, up to 45 miles. These are not wild statements and I am content for you to search the forum to see all the posts I'm speaking of, also seeing all those who complain of drag.

I'm not doubting your capability to achieve that circa 5 Wh per mile, but I do question that forms good advice for those who cannot achieve anything like it. Obviously with apparently the ability to achieve twice the range ability of most in the forum, you will be far less affected by drag, but conversely those without that ability will be more affected.

I've noted you say that you are not an especially strong rider, but what you report has contradicted that. Maybe you wil remember my comments on David Henshaw of A to B magazine and his strength of riding and race successes, but he does not achieve what you do, 30 miles typically on 360 Wh and only 22 miles on one of eZee's models, all while based in fairly flat areas.

 

[andrewgardner]

Flecc is fight of course.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That's because they are true. I've been in this forum from day one and therefore remember the drift of posting trends, and I'm merely reporting that. I'm also quoting those SB motors with freewheels, mainly due to the forum only being in existence since September 2006.

Please don't be offended by what follows without reading it through. I am not counting your experience because it is extraordinary, and I'm basing that on your reporting a 70 mile range on a 36 volt 10 Ah battery at about 5 Wh per mile with an SB motored bike as nothing out of the ordinary. You must be a very special rider to achieve that since nobody else in this forum has ever reported similar results. The norm for most with SB motors is barely half that, 30 to 35 miles, or with the larger 14 Ah batteries, up to 45 miles. These are not wild statements and I am content for you to search the forum to see all the posts I'm speaking of, also seeing all those who complain of drag.

I'm not doubting your capability to achieve that circa 5 Wh per mile, but I do question that forms good advice for those who cannot achieve anything like it. Obviously with apparently the ability to achieve twice the range ability of most in the forum, you will be far less affected by drag, but conversely those without that ability will be more affected.

I've noted you say that you are not an especially strong rider, but what you report has contradicted that. Maybe you wil remember my comments on David Henshaw of A to B magazine and his strength of riding and race successes, but he does not achieve what you do, 30 miles typically on 360 Wh and only 22 miles on one of eZee's models, all while based in fairly flat areas.

I don't understand what any of that has got to do with drag from a motor, or are you trying to suggest that my motors are special in that they can produce their own power, which overcomes the drag.

And I don't care what range you or A to B magazine get out of your bikes. On the extremely hilly Tour de Presteigne ride, most of the bikes reached well over 30 miles before they needed to change the batteries. Mine went at about 35, and the Daum made nearly the whole 50 miles on it's 9aH 36v battery - apparently.

 

[flecc]

I don't understand what any of that has got to do with drag from a motor, or are you trying to suggest that my motors are special in that they can produce their own power, which overcomes the drag.

And I don't care what range you or A to B magazine get out of your bikes. On the extremely hilly Tour de Presteigne ride, most of the bikes reached well over 30 miles before they needed to change the batteries. Mine went at about 35, and the Daum made nearly the whole 50 miles on it's 9aH 36v battery - apparently.

As a very strong rider your perception of a given amount of drag will be very much lower of course, I thought that was obvious.

And you confirm what I said about hub motors, 30 to 35 miles is typical, not your 70 miles.

The Daum is a crank drive motor, not the SB hub motor I posted about above, and as I've often posted, these are more effective in achieving much longer ranges. Even in my 70s I can cover 50 miles on 10 Ah with a Panasonic unit bike, though again I note you have previously disputed these are more efficient.

d8veh, you are a one-off and I applaud that, for your differences enrich the world. Heaven help us if everyone was closely alike, but you can't expect everyone else to have the same perceptions. That's why, as well as my own, I'm careful to post others experiences as I did above, to give a balanced view.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

And you confirm what I said about hub motors, 30 to 35 miles is typical, not your 70 miles.

This ride was not your average Sunday ride. It was continuously up and down long steep hills with virtually no flat bits in 50 miles so that most of the time I was pushing my motor (and myself) to the maximum. I would imagine all these riders on a normal Sunday ride would be getting a range of about 50 miles or more. You must've read the post, so you should have known that. Are you sure your not being very selective with facts again to paint a different picture than reality? It's a shame because many people on the forum respect your longevity and experience on this forum, but I find it very worrying when you state things as if they're fact when they're actually your opinion because people who don't know better will tend to believe you. I've noticed that you have done this many times in the past, but I kept quiet to avoid any conflict, but now I've said it and I'm not ashamed.

 

[flecc]

I've made the point many times that hilly terrain does not affect as much as many would imagine, since for every up there's a down. So long as a rider does not waste energy through excessive braking, kinetic energy compensates to a fair extent. Pedalling when it's easy on downslopes can add enough to completely cancel climb losses, but of course I cannot know exactly how that riding was done. The reported 30 miles is still very much closer to the 30 to 35 miles I mentioned for average territories than the 70 miles you previously mentioned though, so I see no grounds for your dispute.

I'm not being selective, merely reporting on the basis of other's postings and my own experience, and that is all I've been doing in this thread.

I don't mind if your experience differs, which is why I didn't question your 70 miles range report at the time, or your comments on others fitness and lack of motor drag at that time. I've only raised them when you've chosen to challenge a perfectly valid post I made above.

Why can't you just be content to post your own knowledge and experience and leave me to post mine? After all, my experience is of 61 years of powered biking including trade experience, backed by the years and member experience postings in this forum.

It's for readers to decide the respective merits of advice, not for you to dictate.
.

 

[billyfish010]

I have read this thread with great interest since I too have a front drive hub motor and though I am not a particularly fit old person I can achieve between 30 - 50 miles on a ride without using the power at all.

As for the drag factor well to me it just doesn’t exist or at least not so I can tell, I have the Sunlova kit with the 8Fun Suzhou Bafang motor and most of the time I don’t even put the power on. I deliberately bought a model with a small battery to keep the weight down so that if for some reason when out cycling I felt too tired to just use my own power I could use it to assist me when needed.

The bike I put the kit on was in regular use and when changing from the normal front wheel to the motorised wheel I honestly could not tell the difference. My average speed was the same the only slight difference I noticed was when travelling slowly you could feel the weight of the motor but even that is not enough to cause any discomfort.

After reading this thread I did a little exercise and I have to say I only spent a couple of hours looking but I was a little surprised to find that whenever drag was mentioned it was on most occasions the same two members who raised the issue of hub motor drag. I won’t say who they are and I know if I did the exercise again it could be different but I have to say I am wondering if certain people do not like hub drives.

 

[Blew it]

billyfish010,

You are too modest.

....."I am not a particularly fit old person I can achieve between 30 - 50 miles on a ride without using the power at all.".....

Some might ask the question, why do you lug all the additional (dead) weight of the electrical system around if you rarely use it, would it not be better to simply ride a lightweight unpowered machine?.

Perhaps there is a difference between real cyclists such as yourself, who need a little help occasionally, and E-bike riders who depend on constant assistance. In the case of the latter, the absence of that assistance as a result of electrical failure or a flat battery, the rider is going to struggle to return home. This ongoing debate regarding the issue of hub-motor drag is never likely to be resolved until a method of measuring it is devised.

As an aside, I have one particular hub-motored machine in my collection, a much loved Synergie Mistral with a brushed motor, and that is an absolute pig to ride without electric assistance.

All the best to you and yours.
Regards
Bob

 

[NRG]

I'll bite because I know my user name would come up in those searches, so no need to be so coy billyifish....theres a joke there somewhere Anyhow, you suspect wrongly as I love both my hub powered bikes and have compered with and without motor, for me there is a difference and its noticeable which is even more obvious when I jump onto my free running Proconnect. I doubt I could ride the sort of distance you mention without power even sans motor on the bike, if I could then Bob has a very valid point about needing assistance and lugging all that extra weight about.

I'm not going to convince you or anybody else differently and you wont be able to do these same so lets just leave this alone and move on please.

 

[flecc]

My impressions are the same as NRG about drag, but I equally like hub motors and my last two bikes have been hub motor and my crank drive one sold, so there is no bias.

I can assure you billyfish that there have been numerous postings from many members over the forum years bemoaning the drag we speak of, the postings possibly diminishing since it had become an accepted penalty of internally geared SB hub motors. Having been in the forum from day one, I can assure you this is not imagination and as I've shown, it hasn't stopped me buying them, despite them being miserable to pedal without power for me.

One day I might have the time to hunt down some of the threads including posts about the drag, if only to convince that many do experience it. Meanwhile I reserve the right to warn others that they might experience it as I do, just as you have the right to post that you don't.
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