Another battery question-please can you help?

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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^^ I think the assumption our European neighbours are particularly bothered about enforcement of eBike performance limitations / lack of throttles is a little off the mark.

Perhaps there might be the odd purge here & there .. and maybe specifically in Germany / Holland where in the former case they are very clued-in generally and in latter because general awareness of all aspects of cycling is greater than most but elsewhere in the EU (including Greece & Portugal for example) - I really do have my doubts. In most Southern European countries, as long as you didn't run down and kill a pedestrian, the absolute worst likely outcome I could foresee is some sort of negotiated fine and a ticking off.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,807
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Perhaps there might be the odd purge here & there .. and maybe specifically in Germany / Holland where in the former case they are very clued-in generally and in latter because general awareness of all aspects of cycling is greater than most but elsewhere in the EU (including Greece & Portugal for example) - I really do have my doubts. In most Southern European countries, as long as you didn't run down and kill a pedestrian, the absolute worst likely outcome I could foresee is some sort of negotiated fine and a ticking off.

That is almost exactly what I meant, though I'm not speaking of a purge. I'm saying that in a country like The Netherlands where the e-bike market is so huge and highly developed that they reach one of every six bikes sold, almost everyone knows what a pedelec means and the laws involved, it's not just a matter of the police knowing.

That makes the situation like ours for cars where most people broadly know what's legal and what's not. Things like number plates, tax discs, seat belts, silencers, clean exhaust emissions, sound condition etc. In an environment like that it's not so easy to step well out of line and do one's own thing.

In undeveloped e-bike markets like the UK and as I've acknowledged, Southern Europe, it's very easy to have very illegal e-bikes since hardly anyone knows anything about them.

I'd guess that rides on one of the throttle controlled 1500/2000 watt Xipi bikes in Holland would not go on for long before the widespread attention drawn to it produced action.
 

mountainsport

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 6, 2012
1,419
298
Hi flecc,

Do you have any photos or video clips showing the internal cross section of a Panasonic battery pack system? I suppose that will be asking too much from them.

MS.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Just had an interesting gander at the Optibike website for the 1st time - following on from my earlier protestations about the very small batteries offered by BionX and European suppliers it's interesting to look at the ones used on these US bikes :

http://optibike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/R_Series_Motor_and_Battery_Options.jpg

37v 22Ah, 37v 26Ah. Granted the bikes might be £6k-£12k-odd landed depending on the options you choose but the point is these guys realize this is the sort of battery capacity that fits with using bikes capable of more performance. Plus they appear to be more than capable of integrating them into the bikes weight-wise. Have to say it's the 1st higher end bike that I'm really impressed by the look of.

Bit shocking wanting $2,500 (guess make that £ over here) on top for a further touring battery (presumably to take it up to the 40+ Ah I've maintained is an appropriate amount for a higher performance bike to be used for longer rides...) but looking at BionX prices that seems par for the course Ah for Ah. In that context, the Lifecycle's Panasonic offering doesn't seem so bad after all. The slight joke about a 'Touring package' on an Optibike is - well - take a look at them. Completely the wrong bike for touring imho. A loaded touring bike probably has 2 front panniers, 2 rear ones, rack in use and a bar bag ! A 20 mile round trip commute without an interim charge, perhaps !

So you can get what I would like performance wise as standard in the retail market and seems US suppliers of arguably some of the very best bikes are indeed incorporating high battery capacity as a matter of course. But the price is multiples of what I'd want to pay. US battery prices are out of control for what they actually are. Presumably the market is relatively small in gas-guzzling America for bikes like this with little price competition and the European eBike restrictions mean no competition from the other side of the pond. Looks like sellers have likely effectively "price-set". When you look at all the batteries getting opened up and examine what's really inside it's even more apparent how much of a rip this all is and how damaging for any industry / environmental growth in significant vehicle substitution. Perhaps that really does fit the European agenda in the presence of very low power/speed tolerance limits and the absence of regulatory framework for the higher performance product.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that even if you want to go for performance / high end or have a good 'c' rating battery pack made for you the best way to achieve it for a sensible and justifiable cost is likely to commission it yourself. Maybe I'm missing something but other than getting hold of a decent BMS it doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal.

You might not get Optibike handling out of it but you can readily get range and very good performance on a more conventional bike at literally a fraction of the cost. The only downside is you're restricted to hub motors and there's no denying that if an Optibike was £3.5-£4k rather than £8-£10k I'd probably roll over and buy one - if they could sort out a rack lol. Definitely would want this sort of spec for that sort of money rather than a Haibike with dongle & a 400Wh battery. The battery's only one of the elements of the package but it's a critical one. Since a bit more speed takes vastly more battery, especially when climbing, there's no getting away from it - packing in the achievable Ah efficiently in the right place on the bike would likely be my no. 1 goal in order to wind up with a performance bike you can really go touring for the day with at a realistic price.

Being able to make a really good and attractive moulded weatherproof enclosure on the frame to accommodate the cells in and having a controller system that was small and could be easily integrated without the need for such large heat sink box-like enclosures would also go a heck of a long way towards closing the 'handling gap' the best retail bikes hold over conversions. The high-end crank drive like Optibike are still way out on their own though by the looks of it. Guess they have to cash in on their patent.
 
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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
I'm saying that in a country like The Netherlands where the e-bike market is so huge and highly developed that they reach one of every six bikes sold, almost everyone knows what a pedelec means and the laws involved, it's not just a matter of the police knowing.
The Netherlands is only one country out of the whole of the EU - Germany making it 2 with possible wider experience for slightly different reasons and they have their own 'S Pedelec' laws which open up at least some flexibility there no doubt enjoyed by those in the hills. Holland in particular is very flat and higher performance bikes are most usually found in places with hillier terrain. As far as the rest of the EU is concerned ....
 

mountainsport

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 6, 2012
1,419
298
Alex please don't laugh at me but I do know where you are coming from about the bike rack, a simple matter for some, but more of a serious matter for me. Imho a bike is not complete without a quality rack and mud guards.

I know that the Optibike is in the same price region as the Steath bomber or whatever, but overall out of the two , which of these bikes would people mainly go for ? Maybe the younger crowd will go for the Stealth ebikes just a guess.

MS.