Another London cyclist killed

[RobF]

The authorities have provided advanced stop lines.
I wonder why?
Obviously because cyclists are in danger from left turning trucks.
Why are female deaths so disproportionate?
Cannot be anything to do with the trucks.

As flecc has ventured, it may be the lass is more inclined to wait for a green light and, in any event, is slower off the mark.

A more aggressive male cyclist gets in front of the truck before it turns left, the female cyclist is still on the truck's nearside when the turn starts.

Of course, the driver should not turn across her path, which brings in blindspots, driver awareness, etc.

 

[flecc]

Of course, the driver should not turn across her path, which brings in blindspots, driver awareness, etc.

Unfortunately Rob, that area is "blind" to the driver of the truck types in question. It's under the mirrors or a bit forward, and there are demo videos online showing this. One featured on TV showed how a number of cyclists can be positioned in "blind" areas around that type of truck, all unseen from the drivers seat or through mirrors.

A truck driver cannot cater for them, the wise cyclists avoid those well known dangers and stay safe. Cyclists getting into or finding themselves in those blind positions have to share in the responsibility. Ultimately each of us using the roads must be responsible for our own safety, only the foolish pass that responsibility to others to take care of.
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[RobF]

At the bike show at the NEC the police had a display to illustrate blindspots.

It was a standard articulated lorry tractor with bits of the car park in front of it covered in a mat to indicate where the driver could not see.

Can't recall the exact measurements, but the area was several feet to the front and nearside.

 

[JohnCade]

They are doing the wrong things as I've said in the fifth paragraph of my post, and as I've constantly said, it really doesn't matter what that is. What really matters is that they should stop doing that, and that is my aim.

As for the knowledge, I've lived in London virtually all my life and still do. I've been cycling since the age of 10.

I'm a qualified trade union recognised motor mechanic who spent five years working predominantly on trucks and two years on truck inspectorate duties. During time I was driving trucks almost every working day. I've never taken a car test, I passed my test in a 10 ton long wheelbase truck.

Some years later in commerce, from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s I supplied engineering products to the construction industry from my Wandsworth depot. Although managing that, I kept my hand in by acting as a relief driver of my depot trucks for occasional absences. So that didn't take the whole day I confined myself to the construction site and depot deliveries in London and the immediate surrounding area.

So I tick every one of the boxes of relevant knowledge and have a balanced view.

On the one hand I'm posting of my subject specific knowledge plus that of TfL and other interested parties, all of us knowing the factors that cause this gender specific bias in deaths.

On the other hand we have your efforts to prove it's either the trucks or their drivers to blame, while never explaining how either select mainly females to kill.

I'll leave members to read this and all our other posts in this thread and decide for themselves who is right.
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I’m fascinated by your life flecc. No really.

But you see it doesn’t matter how you try to spin this discussion or how many twists you make. Because all I ever wanted to know is how you know that these women riders are riding up the inside of stopped trucks, and are not being overtaken by them when they’re already at the junction?

That’s all I’ve been asking all along. Because as I’ve now written about six times I agree it’s quite possible that they are not being assertive enough in pulling well ahead at junctions. But you are claiming they are zooming up the inside of these poor completely innocent tipper drivers just as they are setting off making it impossible for them to see them.

So yet again I say prove it. Or stop claiming it’s happening.

“ I just didn’t see her gov, honest. She must have come up beside me at 20 mph in the gutter because she wasn’t there when I looked before. Did I look to see it there was anyone beside me as I started to turn? Well, I must have done. She must have shot up beside me like bleeding Barry Sheen. I mean if she was there already when I arrived at the junction I would have seen her. It’s not as if cyclists waiting at traffic lights are invisible to drivers is it?”

By now you’ve got several people here believing that I’ve been arguing another point because a lot of people can’t be bothered to read up a thread before joining it.

So evidence please not waffle. No hurry BTW I only look in here a couple of times a day mostly. Life’s too short to spend it looking at computers.

 

[JohnCade]

Unfortunately Rob, that area is "blind" to the driver of the truck types in question. It's under the mirrors or a bit forward, and there are demo videos online showing this. One featured on TV showed how a number of cyclists can be positioned in "blind" areas around that type of truck, all unseen from the drivers seat or through mirrors.

A truck driver cannot cater for them, the wise cyclists avoid those well known dangers and stay safe. Cyclists getting into or finding themselves in those blind positions have to share in the responsibility. Ultimately each of us using the roads must be responsible for our own safety, only the foolish pass that responsibility to others to take care of.
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Like I said before proper positioning of extra mirrors as they have in LH drive trucks for overtaking blind spots would solve it. If the drivers actually looked in them that is.

 

[flecc]

I’m fascinated by your life flecc. No really.

I decide at an early age that the insulting "Jack of all trades, master of none" was actually desirable in our complex modern world to be able to understand sufficiently all that affects our lives. So often claims like twenty years experience mean in practice one years experience twenty times over. Therefore I've opted for a diverse life ranging through many areas of experience. I've never hesitated to change employment and have twice chosen to drop from senior positions down to the floor level in another employment just for the experience. I also turned down directorship offers twice in my last job, simply to stay in touch with the real world.

all I ever wanted to know is how you know that these women riders are riding up the inside of stopped trucks, and are not being overtaken by them when they’re already at the junction?

I have never claimed that is the sole reason, nor that only women do it, only that it is a major cause. I see enough of common cycling practice in London to know how common that action is and have often had cyclists force past me when I'm stopped or cycling slowly at the rear of a truck nearside, including at left turn junctions. Another member posted about just this a little while ago. Men do it just as often, but they don't usually stay in that position as discussed before.

I previously drew your attention to the conditions in which cyclists find themselves on the n/s of trucks in a paragraph five of an earlier post. In that I showed that all but one condition were avoidable in advance by cyclists, and that remaining condition can so easily be immediately corrected by the cyclist. So in all conditions the cyclists could avoid the deaths caused by being on the nearside of trucks.

Therefore no matter what the cause of that main type of HGV involved accident, the rider killed has been foolish. That is why I have pointed out repeatedly that your obsession with this precise cause is irrelevant, it only matters that women need to act differently. That has been my objective each time I've posted threads on this subject.

I also invite you to read my opening post in this thread where you will see that I merely refer to women riding on the nearside of trucks, not how they got there.
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[flecc]

Like I said before proper positioning of extra mirrors as they have in LH drive trucks for overtaking blind spots would solve it. If the drivers actually looked in them that is.

It cannot solve the problem and I've described the drivers limitations on mirror use. For example, a mirror to cope with a cyclist just forward in that blind spot would have to be at the rear of the n/s door window and facing forward and downwards. A further mirror to cope with those close ahead of the truck's highcab and "blind" to the driver would need to be in front of the driver outside the windscreen and pointing down, and that has been tried.

So where is the driver thus equipped to look in the pair of moments that he has to look as he sets off and then goes into the turn, also having to look where he is going? In the usual pair of n/s mirrors, at the one at the rear of the door window, at the one directly in front of him? Given how widely placed they would be, it's not practical to use the mirrors covering every eventuality.

If you ever have the opportunity, sit in the driver's seat of a modern high forward control cab and you'll realise how helpless a driver can be when cyclists swarm close all around him as happens now with a quarter million of them commuting into central London now.

In fact there have been a number of exercises in giving London cyclists just that experience in ideally safety equipped trucks, and the realities of that situation often shocks them. I've no doubt it changes their behaviour.

I'll conclude by repeating what I posted in answer to Rob:

Ultimately each of us using the roads must be responsible for our own safety, only the foolish pass that responsibility to others to take care of.
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[Deleted member 4366]

Here's all the data on London Cycle deaths, you can both check who's theory is correct. You can use the filters at the top to analyse it:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuEtgCUuVBDUdHZqbEZ1NVctVTBVeFRqTmNVbGZnbXc&hl=de&pli=1#gid=0

 

[flecc]

Here's all the data on London Cycle deaths, you can both check who's theory is correct. You can use the filters at the top to analyse it:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuEtgCUuVBDUdHZqbEZ1NVctVTBVeFRqTmNVbGZnbXc&hl=de&pli=1#gid=0

Thanks d8veh.

My analysis from that shows London deaths resulting from interaction between cyclists and all the listed HGV forms that are the subject of the thread are as follows for 2006 to date:

Male............32

Female.......35

With females being some one fifth of the cycling commuters, the seriousness of the position is clear.

However, as the compiler comments, there may be some omissions and there definitely are since that ratio is somewhat worse than I've observed over the years. Woman are disproportionally far more likely to be killed by HGVs, but not quite to that extent.

According to other sources, the same gender deaths bias occurs nationally, but to a far lesser extent and not considered a serious problem elsewhere. Women also appear more likely to cycle elsewhere, according to one source they form 28% nationally against about 20% in London.
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[JohnCade]

.[/quote]

I decide at an early age that the insulting "Jack of all trades, master of none" was actually desirable in our complex modern world to be able to understand sufficiently all that affects our lives. So often claims like twenty years experience mean in practice one years experience twenty times over. Therefore I've opted for a diverse life ranging through many areas of experience. I've never hesitated to change employment and have twice chosen to drop from senior positions down to the floor level in another employment just for the experience. I also turned down directorship offers twice in my last job, simply to stay in touch with the real world.



I have never claimed that is the sole reason, nor that only women do it, only that it is a major cause. I see enough of common cycling practice in London to know how common that action is and have often had cyclists force past me when I'm stopped or cycling slowly at the rear of a truck nearside, including at left turn junctions. Another member posted about just this a little while ago. Men do it just as often, but they don't usually stay in that position as discussed before.

I previously drew your attention to the conditions in which cyclists find themselves on the n/s of trucks in a paragraph five of an earlier post. In that I showed that all but one condition were avoidable in advance by cyclists, and that remaining condition can so easily be immediately corrected by the cyclist. So in all conditions the cyclists could avoid the deaths caused by being on the nearside of trucks.

Therefore no matter what the cause of that main type of HGV involved accident, the rider killed has been foolish. That is why I have pointed out repeatedly that your obsession with this precise cause is irrelevant, it only matters that women need to act differently. That has been my objective each time I've posted threads on this subject.

I also invite you to read my opening post in this thread where you will see that I merely refer to women riding on the nearside of trucks, not how they got there.
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Okay fine. You admit that there is no evidence for your repeated assertion that the main cause of these accidents to women riders was their riding into truck blind spots. Which contrary to what you wrote above you claimed to be the main cause on several threads.
This from your first post on this one.

However it really is baffling that many of them persist in riding in the danger position in the blind left-hand area of trucks after so many warnings in forums, newspapers and on TV.

I have been trying to point out that it’s just as likely that they were passed by these trucks when they were at the junction. That was all flecc. The rest of the stuff about them being less assertive and not taking up a position well to the front I agree with and I said so many times.

I also think that women riders are more likely to freeze if caught in that situation. If it was me I would be off that bike and over any railings like Spring Heeled Jack the moment it started to close on me.

Not that I would allow myself to be caught in that situation.

 

[JohnCade]

It cannot solve the problem and I've described the drivers limitations on mirror use. For example, a mirror to cope with a cyclist just forward in that blind spot would have to be at the rear of the n/s door window and facing forward and downwards. A further mirror to cope with those close ahead of the truck's highcab and "blind" to the driver would need to be in front of the driver outside the windscreen and pointing down, and that has been tried.

So where is the driver thus equipped to look in the pair of moments that he has to look as he sets off and then goes into the turn, also having to look where he is going? In the usual pair of n/s mirrors, at the one at the rear of the door window, at the one directly in front of him? Given how widely placed they would be, it's not practical to use the mirrors covering every eventuality.

If you ever have the opportunity, sit in the driver's seat of a modern high forward control cab and you'll realise how helpless a driver can be when cyclists swarm close all around him as happens now with a quarter million of them commuting into central London now.

In fact there have been a number of exercises in giving London cyclists just that experience in ideally safety equipped trucks, and the realities of that situation often shocks them. I've no doubt it changes their behaviour.

I'll conclude by repeating what I posted in answer to Rob:

Ultimately each of us using the roads must be responsible for our own safety, only the foolish pass that responsibility to others to take care of.
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I see no reason why mirrors can’t be positioned to give a clear view all around the near side of the cab. It’s not hard to glance at a couple of mirrors even if one is facing down or forward. I know what the visibility is like from a high cab flecc. I’m not going into my life story here but I have driven HGVs in the past.

 

[flecc]

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I have been trying to point out that it’s just as likely that they were passed by these trucks when they were at the junction. That was all flecc. The rest of the stuff about them being less assertive and not taking up a position well to the front I agree with and I said so many times.

I also think that women riders are more likely to freeze if caught in that situation. .[/quote]

I agree with that John, but have said that there is no need for them to ever stay in that position, it's instantly correctable. That is why I said they persist in doing it, for that is what they are almost certainly doing if they get killed.

The only exception is if a truck overtakes them right on the corner as they turn and there has been no evidence that is what is happening. Indeed it conflicts with the odd videos and witness statements on the subject. As previously remarked, London's CCTV coverage is such that in many if not most cases the police have the film of the accident. If the manouvre by the truck driver was that blatant, they'd be prosecuting.
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[flecc]

I see no reason why mirrors can’t be positioned to give a clear view all around the near side of the cab. It’s not hard to glance at a couple of mirrors even if one is facing down or forward. I know what the visibility is like from a high cab flecc. I’m not going into my life story here but I have driven HGVs in the past.

I still think you are discounting the dynamic reality in London rush hour driving conditions.

However, we obviously need to agree to disagree on this point.
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[EddieH]

I see no reason why mirrors can’t be positioned to give a clear view all around the near side of the cab. .

Because you then find yourself in the position where the mirrors are the things Causing the blind spots.

 

[flecc]

Because you then find yourself in the position where the mirrors are the things Causing the blind spots.

Very true, I've even owned cars like that.
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[barrycoll]

If this situation happened in Europe, the onus of responsibility would always be primarily on the driver, and not on the vulnerable road user.

 

[SRS]

If this situation happened in Europe, the onus of responsibility would always be primarily on the driver, and not on the vulnerable road user.

Tell that to any dead cyclist who had positioned him/ herself in a vulnerable position.

 

[flecc]

If this situation happened in Europe, the onus of responsibility would always be primarily on the driver, and not on the vulnerable road user.

That is indeed the law there, but the behaviour of Continental truck drivers when in this country makes me wonder how much that is put into practice. I can't believe they automatically completely change their behaviour the moment they arrive here.
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