Anyone built or successfully using a ducted fan powered electric bike ?

Tubamanandy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2014
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Anyone built or successfully using a ducted fan powered electric bike ?

Had an interest in this since seeing The Gadget Show build one a few years back - would be interested in finding plans etc
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The video illustrates the only time this concept is any use, for speed on the flat.

Any gradient or headwind would bring it to a standstill.

The problem is the small area of thrust at the nozzle, the area of air it's pressing against being too small to realise useful power against any real resistance.

Earlier jet engines had the same problem with high load applications, until Pratt & Whitney invented the turbofan bypass engines for the Boeing 747, which greatly increased the area of thrust and the effectiveness of the central area of thrust.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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This was one of my favourites. Put a 250w label on it and you're ready for take off. If the police come after you, deploy the parachute and wave them bye bye:
That's better, much larger thrust area than a small ducted fan.

It would leave a trail of blood in city streets though!
.
 
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D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
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That's better, much larger thrust area than a small ducted fan.

It would leave a trail of blood in city streets though!
.
And?
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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Think a lot of folk decided on wrong sport when they bought Pedelecs..

Should have gone sky diving or BASE jumping...

I,m sure this is a Pedelec forum ....ahwell must be wrong..

Its like taking up knitting and posting pictures of drag bikes...rather a lot of frustrated people aren't there..??
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Think a lot of folk decided on wrong sport when they bought Pedelecs..

Should have gone sky diving or BASE jumping...

I,m sure this is a Pedelec forum ....ahwell must be wrong..

Its like taking up knitting and posting pictures of drag bikes...rather a lot of frustrated people aren't there..??
If you look at the title of this forum, it says "electric bicycles". We're discussing bicycles powered by electric motors, which are de facto "electric bicycles". If you don't like it, think of words to do with sex and travel, and then go and do it.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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Be careful D8...thats nearly subtle..
( my smilies aren't working)

But feck off yourself. ( my smilies aren't working...dont take all my posts seriously..its still a pedelec forum by the way)
Here's a nice picture of a kart..or is it a pedelec ??
IMG-20160413-WA0002.jpg
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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Tubamanandy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2014
267
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Still glad I posted the question - great stuff from d8veh & the theory from flecc (very interesting)
 

Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
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Devon
Be careful D8...thats nearly subtle..
( my smilies aren't working)

But feck off yourself. ( my smilies aren't working...dont take all my posts seriously..its still a pedelec forum by the way)
Here's a nice picture of a kart..or is it a pedelec ??
View attachment 13784
Yawn.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
The video illustrates the only time this concept is any use, for speed on the flat.

Any gradient or headwind would bring it to a standstill.

The problem is the small area of thrust at the nozzle, the area of air it's pressing against being too small to realise useful power against any real resistance.

Earlier jet engines had the same problem with high load applications, until Pratt & Whitney invented the turbofan bypass engines for the Boeing 747, which greatly increased the area of thrust and the effectiveness of the central area of thrust.
.
I'm not sticking up fot this method of propulsion, I think it's totally wrong and inefficient on this scale.

However, this has nothing to do with nozzle size. Nozzle size alone does not dictate how powerful these engines are or how much thrust they produce. In simple terms the engine or motor is producing a force which we term as thrust. In a jet engine thrust is produced by taking a volume of air and changing its velocity (speed) through the engine, or accelerating it. Force (or thrust) = mass (quantity of air) x acceleration (how much you speed up the airflow). So you can either (1) take a small quantity of air and accelerate it greatly or (2) take a large quantity of air and accelerate it more gently in order to produce exactly the same output in terms of thrust or force.

Both methods have advantages and disadvantages.

(1) usually results in the air and combustion products exiting the engine hot and at supersonic speeds. These are termed low by pass engines and tend to be used on military jets etc or where supersonic flight is desired. The engine also tends to be much smaller and compact for a given output which is good for military jets. However they are horrendously noisy. In the early days of commercial jet travel this type of engine was prevalent The P&W JT8D on 737s, 707s and 727s. The RR Conway on VC10s, RR Spey on the Trident, RR Olympus on Concord, all very loud and unacceptable for today's commercial flying.

(2) These are engines such as the RR RB211 series and more recently the Trent and GE CM56s. Instead of spitting out fast moving supersonic exhaust gasses, these engines utilise extra turbine stages to remove more energy from the exhaust gas. This results is slower, cooler and much more quiet emission. The additional energy extracted in the slowing and cooling phase is used to drive a large fan at the front. Just think of this as a multi bladed propeller encased within the engine. This fan moves a massive quantity of air but doesn't speed it up as much as in the case of (1). These engines are very quiet, almost inaudible on the ground when cruising at altitude. Perfect for civil aviation purposes.

The move to these physically larger engines was not anything to do with lack of thrust due to small nozzle areas, thrust was never a problem. It was the noise aspect and to propell a 747 with a low by pass engine would have created earth shattering noise levels making it a commercial failure. The high by pass engines which are on every commercial jet today are everything to do with noise and not thrust.

Just as an aside, I was at Bruntingthorpe in Northants last year for their Cold War Jets Day. They high speed taxi all sorts of relecs and chop the engine just as the nose wheel comes up in the hope they can stop before the end of the runway. The Lightnings (RR Avon engines with re-heat) where like nothing I've ever heard before. Being only 10 meters away wasn't probably the best plan. However, a VC10 went later on and my liver is still resonating from that. That noise does not belong on earth and to imagine it taking off from Heathrow on 09 across London is unthinkable. No wonder it was never very successful. Beutiful fast aircraft in its day, but far too noisy, hence the move to high by pass.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
833
402
Great post Tillson.

Isn't there something about smaller nozle increasing speed of stream and so increasing momentum exchange..yrs I know momentum and ke have to be maintained.....or is momentum exchange constant ( ie pre nozzle lower speed higher cross section/ post nozzle higher speed lower CSA...but same momentum..not sure how KE can be constant either...1/2 mass x velocity squared??? You,d guess smaller nozzle would increase KE but it cant ? Can it ? Where,s extra KE come from ??

Restricting flow increases speed but lowers pressure...presumably that accounts for change in KE ??
Its not called rocket science for nothing ???
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,822
30,383
I'm not sticking up fot this method of propulsion, I think it's totally wrong and inefficient on this scale.

However, this has nothing to do with nozzle size. Nozzle size alone does not dictate how powerful these engines are or how much thrust they produce. In simple terms the engine or motor is producing a force which we term as thrust. In a jet engine thrust is produced by taking a volume of air and changing its velocity (speed) through the engine, or accelerating it. Force (or thrust) = mass (quantity of air) x acceleration (how much you speed up the airflow). So you can either (1) take a small quantity of air and accelerate it greatly or (2) take a large quantity of air and accelerate it more gently in order to produce exactly the same output in terms of thrust or force.

Both methods have advantages and disadvantages.

(1) usually results in the air and combustion products exiting the engine hot and at supersonic speeds. These are termed low by pass engines and tend to be used on military jets etc or where supersonic flight is desired. The engine also tends to be much smaller and compact for a given output which is good for military jets. However they are horrendously noisy. In the early days of commercial jet travel this type of engine was prevalent The P&W JT8D on 737s, 707s and 727s. The RR Conway on VC10s, RR Spey on the Trident, RR Olympus on Concord, all very loud and unacceptable for today's commercial flying.

(2) These are engines such as the RR RB211 series and more recently the Trent and GE CM56s. Instead of spitting out fast moving supersonic exhaust gasses, these engines utilise extra turbine stages to remove more energy from the exhaust gas. This results is slower, cooler and much more quiet emission. The additional energy extracted in the slowing and cooling phase is used to drive a large fan at the front. Just think of this as a multi bladed propeller encased within the engine. This fan moves a massive quantity of air but doesn't speed it up as much as in the case of (1). These engines are very quiet, almost inaudible on the ground when cruising at altitude. Perfect for civil aviation purposes.

The move to these physically larger engines was not anything to do with lack of thrust due to small nozzle areas, thrust was never a problem. It was the noise aspect and to propell a 747 with a low by pass engine would have created earth shattering noise levels making it a commercial failure. The high by pass engines which are on every commercial jet today are everything to do with noise and not thrust.

Just as an aside, I was at Bruntingthorpe in Northants last year for their Cold War Jets Day. They high speed taxi all sorts of relecs and chop the engine just as the nose wheel comes up in the hope they can stop before the end of the runway. The Lightnings (RR Avon engines with re-heat) where like nothing I've ever heard before. Being only 10 meters away wasn't probably the best plan. However, a VC10 went later on and my liver is still resonating from that. That noise does not belong on earth and to imagine it taking off from Heathrow on 09 across London is unthinkable. No wonder it was never very successful. Beutiful fast aircraft in its day, but far too noisy, hence the move to high by pass.
I know, appreciate and broadly agree with this Tillson, but wanted to avoid such length as your post demonstrates necessary.

I'd hoped that it would be taken as read that the volume and speed of throughput would be too limited on a bike powered system to make any worthwhile difference to the limitation of area of thrust.
.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
833
402
Flecc
I was under impression it was purely done in the interests of efficiency ( not sure how) and to blanket the engine in compressed air to suppress noise.
I agree with Tillson. Infact there are arguments ( as outlined in post above) to redduce CSA of thrust.
Think we are confusing two issues.
Its likely the air we are speaking is operating along lines of turbo prop...yes its contributing to thrust but in its own right, but not in any attempt to increase CSA of jet thrust.
And perhaps that's where the efficiency gains come in. At low altitude turbo props offer benefits.
The engine you speak of is not turbo prop but the fan normally only used to compress air for the jet has some of its output ducted to miss the jet, surround the engine and then contribute to thrust..( its like 2 engines)
Yes the total area will increase but its two disparate elements. The central jet and the surrounding air..wp_ss_20160501_0001.png
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,822
30,383
Yes the total area will increase but its two disparate elements. The central jet and the surrounding air..View attachment 13796
I don't disagree, and I'd add the surrounding wall of air also increases the thrust efficiency of the central jet. In this there's an important relatonship to the lower throughput speed of the high bypass engine that Tillson refers to.
.
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
I don't disagree, and I'd add the surrounding wall of air also increases the thrust efficiency of the central jet. In this there's an important relatonship to the lower throughput speed of the high bypass engine that Tillson refers to.
.
Yes I agree with that too. There is bound to be a reaction of some kind. For a start the jet is surrounded by moving air helping the free flowing of jet...so yes you are right..
I was under impression RR developed this technology purely for noise suppresion after having lost contracts in USA who had more stringent noise limits than us..( Concorde was banned on this excuse over many areas in USA)
Don't think Pegasus had air jacket ???
Also thought P and W pay license fees to RR for using idea...but that was an simply an assumption, patent would have expired by now anyway..
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,822
30,383
Yes I agree with that too. There is bound to be a reaction of some kind. For a start the jet is surrounded by moving air helping the free flowing of jet...so yes you are right..
I was under impression RR developed this technology purely for noise suppresion after having lost contracts in USA who had more stringent noise limits than us..( Concorde was banned on this excuse over many areas in USA)
Don't think Pegasus had air jacket ???
Also thought P and W pay license fees to RR for using idea...but that was an simply an assumption, patent would have expired by now anyway..
The high bypass proposal originally came from GE, but since the only potential customer for the 747 at the time was Pan-Am who used Pratt & Whitney, Boeing and Pan-Am jointly decided that P & W should develop the engine for the 747.

Unfortunately history gets rewritten by the victors, so the truth about that engine's development and initial failure has now largely disappeared, though some clues do remain in some of the flight testing problems still being reported.
.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
Around the time of the 747's launch, RR were also developing the RB211 which was their first high by-pass ratio engine. It was better than the P&W because it had three shafts connecting the turbines to the compressors as opposed to P&W's two. This allows for better matching of compressor speed to turbine speed at the various stages of compression. For example the Low, Intermediate and High pressure compressors / turbines can all rotate at different speeds on a 3 shaft engine because they are not directly connected to each other. On a single or dual shaft engine, all or some of the various stages are tethered together meaning that optimum efficiency can't be achieved for a given blade geometry.

The net result was that the RB211 was about 4% more efficient (which is a lot) than the P&W. The development cost of the RB211 bankrupted the company, but thankfully was saved, in no small part by the efforts of Tony Benn.

The RB211 turned out to be a reliable engine with world beating efficiency. The American government, as a symbol of the, "Special Relationship" offered to pay the fuel bill difference to any airline ordering a less efficient P&W engine in preference to the RB211. Remember, this was the US government, not P&W doing this. How unfair on RR was that?

Quite a few RB211s found their way onto Lokhead Tristars. I think Fredie Laker had a few and look what they did to him.
 
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