Are some cycle routes 'Off Road'?

[eTim]

I have to say that I am with Lemmy and Alex here. I am also building a kit car, and the DVLA and IVA inspectors trawl the forums watching out for people trying to bend the rules. The IVA test (used to be SVA) was recently re written to fix many loop holes that the authorities had discovered through information posted on forums!

These days, any talk of how to get around a certain rule is only discussed by PM or email and any posts on the forums are immediately removed by the mods.

As e-bikes become more popular, you can rest assured that the authorities will turn to the internet to research what is going on on the ground, just like we do!

Val

Then to me, that is the evolution of ebikes, there is not much that can be done to stop the bureaucracy because it will be discussed in this and other forums and if they pay attention to any of the worldwide forums then they will realise that there a myriad number of kits that could be deemed as illegal available on a global scale.

What illegal practice are we actually worried about here anyway ? Most members on this forum seem to be happy with a 15.5mph limit and pedelec, most of the other rules, eg. removing throttle, have been made in Brussels, Britain has no control over EU law making, we must comply regardless of what is said in public forums.

And in this age of technical wizardy how do you know that a member of your secret PM list is not an DVLA mole, or the whole forum has been hacked and every message is being read anyway ?

 

[eTim]

its not a case of "amending" the laws - the laws are already there and already being broken to varying extents.



at the moment cops aren't going to care that much about people mostly aged 30-70+ who ride responsibly on the roads, especially as even unrestricted most EU-legal bikes (the bulk now on the streets) will only do about 17/18mph anyway.

but give it about 5-10 years or so, when e-bikes have finally become both affordable and "cool" to a wider group including young people in their late teens and 20s - its going to happen eventually, especially when petrol prices keep rising and cops clamp down further on 4 wheel vehicles..

e-bikes will start appealing to "gary boy" types, you are then going to get these younger people (and maybe not so young too!) trying to go ever faster, carry out ill advised stunts on the road etc, perhaps also a rise in theft of e-bikes and "laundering" of stolen components (which will lead to violence as many people in my area take matters into their own hands rather than use cops), also people cycling more under the influence of drugs and alcohol (as cyclists currently get less scrutiny) so injury collisions will rise as well - and then Mr and Ms Plod as well as Whitehall's finest are going to start taking an interest..

Then this is a completely different scenario than a bunch of enthusiasts riding their illegal ebikes sensibly, as we do of course! And that will be the evolution of ebikes, 'as far as we know it Jim' (Star Trek)

 

[Alex728]

Then this is a completely different scenario than a bunch of enthusiasts riding their illegal ebikes sensibly, as we do of course! And that will be the evolution of ebikes, 'as far as we know it Jim' (Star Trek)

Perhaps but many of the late 1990s/2000s illegal ravers were initially just music enthusiasts "bending the rules" and things just escalated from there. if this is the "evolution" of ebikes it will lead to exactly what Lemmy says, more scrutiny and restrictions...

Even the DfT rules which state "off road buttons" are now illegal show (by comparing old and new versions of the document) that someone from Whitehall was either tipped off about certain bikes functionality or found it out themselves, as AFAIK only early Wispers had that functionality...I believe Ezee have also made later models harder to derestrict (if not impossible?), so "free speech" has already had its cost...

That said I don't think individual owners/constructors have anything to fear - provided of course they ride sensibly and are careful about what they upload to youtube, although there may be implications for dealers/importers and the forum admin who could potentially be held accountable for encouraging any perceived illegal activities - plus as I said its not unlikely that competing companies will tip off DfT about any "illegal" bits of others product to create a "level playing field".

For instance take a look at an Ofcom complaints register of telly adverts and competitors are forever dobbing each other in...

Big Brother Britain isn't actually loads of faceless bureaucrats watching you on CCTV, or even uniformed cops watching you (the budget isn't there for that sort of thing!) - its bleaker than that - its the person next to you disagreeing with what you are up to, not confronting you directly but covertly notifying someone in authority..

 

[Memran]

its bleaker than that - its the person next to you disagreeing with what you are up to, not confronting you directly but covertly notifying someone in authority..

This is the sad truth of today.

 

[lemmy]

There's no bridging this divide.

The air gun community thought the police 'had bigger fish to fry' and they were wrong. And eTim's remark about 'who hasn't ridden their bike illegally on the highway at some time' - yes most of us have, hence the clamp down by police in London. People are getting regularly nicked for riding on pavements and jumping red lights now.

I don't want a clamp down or toughening of the regulations on ebikes. Can't the 'go faster' people just pedal harder - or discuss it in private?

 

[flecc]

The simplest answer of course is to ban all e-bikes, just have motor vehicles or bicycles. Those no longer fit enough to manage on a bicycle then have a motor vehicle option.

It's how the world once was, even the motorised bicycles had to be registered and that never caused any difficulties to us in the trade or our customers:

 

[Alex728]

It's how the world once was, even the motorised bicycles had to be registered and that never caused any difficulties to us in the trade or our customers:

wasn't it the case though that small bikes could be ridden indefinitely on just a provisional (without a test but just insurance/MOT), helmets didn't become compulsory until the 1970s and there was no such nonsense as the CBT running out after two years?

 

[Alex728]

The air gun community thought the police 'had bigger fish to fry' and they were wrong.

that was because certain dodgy folk were using high powered air guns (which as you know are as capable of being lethal to humans as a "proper gun") as defensive or even offensive weapons against other humans (or to enforce debt collection), there was also the conversion of various models of gas cartridge powered pistol as "rebores" to fire live rounds

And thus who can blame the Police for clamping down on this practice? Few of us in Blighty wish to see the arrival of American style gun culture to our streets...

Eventually the "bad guys" latch onto any "mischievous" activity and turn it into real crime.

Ironically people here talk about making e-bikes more popular, and with that also comes the risk of antisocial riding and illegal modification, just as it has done with motorcycles and cars. already the local teenagers/youths seem to take notice of me on my (legal) Wisper, some excitedly remarking on how fast it goes.

 

[flecc]

wasn't it the case though that small bikes could be ridden indefinitely on just a provisional (without a test but just insurance/MOT), helmets didn't become compulsory until the 1970s and there was no such nonsense as the CBT running out after two years?

Yes, it was simpler then in some ways, but road tax had to be paid for, motor insurance was necessary and the test was a full motor cycle test. Despite that I never came across anyone riding indefinitely on provisional, most people too proud to do that. Today the test would be easier since there's now classes for everything and a class for e-bikes would have a simpler rider test than a full motorcycle one.
.

 

[Alex728]

Yes, it was simpler then in some ways, but road tax had to be paid for, motor insurance was necessary and the test was a full motor cycle test. Despite that I never came across anyone riding indefinitely on provisional, most people too proud to do that. .

OK by doing the full test they presumably got the right to ride a larger bike, but for those who chose to ride smaller models (I assume not everyone wanted a huge motorcycle) what you are saying is that people voluntarily subjected themslves to further Government control/legislation when they could have "got away with it", out of presumably a sense of "civil duty" and the "greater good"?

I don't mean to be flippant but that genuinely seems like another era to me!

 

[Memran]

I think he means too proud to be perpetually using L-plates.

 

[flecc]

I think he means too proud to be perpetually using L-plates.

.....Exactly!
.

 

[eTim]

It seems to me that there is a paradox with ebikes, in the UK at least. On the one hand we want to spread the word about how they are great, exciting machines that will enhance your life and save the planet etc. On the other hand we don't want to let the great unwashed get hold of them in case they turn them into speed machines or use them to break the law and cause human harm which will lead to stricter legislation. So what do we do?

How are you going to stop the evolution of ebike legislation into whatever restrictive form you think it will eventually take, whilst simultaneously wanting more people to use ebikes and preventing the apparent criminal element out there from turning them into 18-20mph dangerous speed machines.

We all have different reasons for riding ebikes, but for the life of me I cannot think of any reasons that yoofs or crims would want to spend £££££ that they haven't got purchasing ebikes. They would rather steal easy to understand normal bikes, because they are 'way cool'. Ebikes will be a novelty to them and when the battery runs out, unless they stole the charger also, they will be left with a very uncool lump of heavy metal on 2 wheels, which will just be discarded (or flogged on fleabay).

A big point is being missed here anyway, regardless of what happens in the UK, the laws governing this land are now set in Brussels, we have very little say or control over that as citizens of the UK. We will have to implement whatever Brussels tells us to implement, we will also have to stop implementing anything Brussels does not want the UK to implement. Despite Europe's cultural differences we are all seen, by the Eurocrats, as one homogenised Europe where we all think, do and say the same.

 

[Alex728]

We all have different reasons for riding ebikes, but for the life of me I cannot think of any reasons that yoofs or crims would want to spend £££££ that they haven't got purchasing ebikes. They would rather steal easy to understand normal bikes, because they are 'way cool'. Ebikes will be a novelty to them and when the battery runs out, unless they stole the charger also, they will be left with a very uncool lump of heavy metal on 2 wheels, which will just be discarded (or flogged on fleabay).

someone from here already has had an Ezee nicked. There clearly is a black market for e-bikes and this will only develop as they become more popular.

15-20 years ago youths would rarely have owned an IBM-PC/Windows based computer (this being unaffordable) - even a laptop and nor was there as much of a black market for a stolen one.. this is hardly the case nowadays.

There is probably nothing positive which can be done and no bright side either - when e-bikes become more affordable expect the usual "bloody cyclists" moral panic and then some. Even the speeds of legal ones are going to alarm pedestrians and other cyclists used to people going slower... After all it happened when normal push bikes were invented centuries ago, they even immediately got associated with radical politics (Clarion club etc...)

A big point is being missed here anyway, regardless of what happens in the UK, the laws governing this land are now set in Brussels, we have very little say or control over that as citizens of the UK. We

The manufacturers such as Wisper haven't missed this point and are trying to lobby for a power increase whilst keeping the speed limits (how successful they might be is debatable, as ironically the moped manufacturers are lobbying the Euro-regulators to spread FUD about e-bikes).

 

[Alex728]

I think he means too proud to be perpetually using L-plates.

.....Exactly!
.

thats a complete change in the last 20 years, I don't think I have ever actually seen a small moped/motorbike without L-plates.

In my youth (1980s/90s) a small bike with L-plates it was initially seen as an less "dodgy" way of getting on the road without breaking too many laws (of course they were regularly derestricted and I expect they still are), or the L-plates (and subsequent fines/summons for not having them) or expired CBT simply ignored.

Other more dodgy people simply got taught by their mates to "drive" and got in motor cars, until they either got arrested or crashed - it was only because the nanny state has beefed up its surveillance, joined up DVLA/VOSA and the cops a bit more and got rid of insecure analogue radio comms systems that this isn't half as common as it was back in the 1990s.. the "moral code" I rememeber amongst my peers in the 1990s was that stuff like beating people up and robbing houses was wrong, but breaking traffic laws "wasn't even crime..."