Article - How ‘e-bikes’ are changing the way we commute

[eclectic_bike]

Interesting article:

Pedal power: how

I see 50 cycles are repeating the claim that"...we’ve got batteries that can run for about 80 miles per charge, last four years and take over 1100 charges." I assume they are referring to the 18Ah battery. I wish they would qualify this. Anyone who has one of these batteries knows you would be very hard pushed to get that kind of range out of it.

 

[Scottyf]

Couldn't care less, it's positive reinforcement for ebikes.
Good press if you ask me.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi

When asked about range

I tell my customers you can expect to get 1,000 miles + on your bike

JUST LEAVE THE BATTERY AT HOME



Frank

 

[JuicyBike]

Agreed Scotty, all coverage is good, so long as riders' expectations are met.

It would be disastrous for the e-bike "brand" as a whole if new owners regularly reported disappointment compared with what had been promised by their dealer.

 

[flecc]

I see 50 cycles are repeating the claim that"...we’ve got batteries that can run for about 80 miles per charge, last four years and take over 1100 charges." I assume they are referring to the 18Ah battery. I wish they would qualify this. Anyone who has one of these batteries knows you would be very hard pushed to get that kind of range out of it.

This is a difficult one, since it's only natural for companies to report best results, and in 50cycles defence, these are the claims of the manufacturer Kalkhoff which they are merely reporting.

Since I could get 50 miles from the 10Ah battery by consciously riding for economy, and A to B's David Henshaw gets 46 miles riding in Eco mode, I think it quite likely either of us could get circa 80 miles from the 18 Ah battery if we tried. One rider reliably reported in here actually rode 62 miles on the 10 Ah battery and it was still not emptied, so clearly he could go to 100 miles on the 18 Ah!

What can a manufacturer report? Most seem to get around 45 to 50 miles on these 18 Ah batteries, the odd riders much more as shown, while another member only just gets to 35 miles. Whatever a manufacturer says, some will be disappointed unless he quotes the lowest possible figure and then fails to sell any bikes!

Possibly the best approach is for them to quote the best figure with the comment that as the rider input is part of the performance, the outcomes can vary widely.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Are the bikes that can do 80 miles on a charge only 4 or 5kg heavier than a normal bike? I think some punters are going to be disappointed if they read that.

 

[flecc]

Are the bikes that can do 80 miles on a charge only 4 or 5kg heavier than a normal bike? I think some punters are going to be disappointed if they read that.

Same problem and cause, best case quoted. Some utility bikes are real tanks getting close to e-bike weights, while some road race style bikes are featherweights. So the dilemma for the supplier is the same as in the range case. Caveat emptor, it's for the buyer to be wary and interpret claims relative to circumstances before spending a large sum.

The same as I do with cars, I never expect to get anything like the quoted mpg figures derived from official tests, so I assume about two thirds because I drive hard.

 

[10mph]

The range of the new Impulse is increased: up to 180 km

Well, to judge from recent banned threads, this page will get certain doubters foaming at the mouth:
http://www.50cycles.com/kalkhoff-impulse-ebike-riding.htm

However, if you read the small print it does say that under optimum conditions and with a fully charged battery you can cover a distance of up to 180 km with a Kalkhoff Impulse. It also says that the range depends on several factors: the level of assistance selected, the temperature, the number of start-ups, the gear selected, the speed and the hills to be climbed.

I can believe this claim. The impulse battery has a 540Wh battery which accounts for the increased range claim when compared to the 140 km achievable with the 24V 18Ah battery which my Panasonic motored Agattu has.

Also on the Impulse they have done some neat things with the control arrangements, as is shown in the various the plots of output power vs cadence and speed.

I would love to try an Impulse on my ten mile circuit.

 

[flecc]

That sounds very reasonable 10mph, the small print there giving full information for sensible purchasers to read.

 

[indalo]

I would love to try an Impulse on my ten mile circuit.

Me too! I'm leaning towards a test ride on one of these curious machines.

Indalo

 

[carpetbagger]

Interesting article:

Pedal power: how

I see 50 cycles are repeating the claim that"...we’ve got batteries that can run for about 80 miles per charge, last four years and take over 1100 charges." I assume they are referring to the 18Ah battery. I wish they would qualify this. Anyone who has one of these batteries knows you would be very hard pushed to get that kind of range out of it.

Given my Agattu has gear and motor changes which reduce the range below is a ride i did on thursday.
43 miles and 2 lights out on the control i reckon i was 9 miles into the next light and the flashing stage to go. Another 25 possible given past rides.As can be seen from the data it certainly wasn't flat. Most of the ride was meduim or low power with a little on the steepest hills in high.
Now the strange thing is i see very little difference from the first 13 miles of the ride whether i am in medium or a mixture of both......
The art of getting a decent range is not to struggle in too high gear.Use them and your battery will last longer. May be thats where some people are going wrong.
samlesbury-waddington-dunsop bridge-hurst green-ribchester by carpetbagger1 at Garmin Connect - Details

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That sounds very reasonable 10mph, the small print there giving full information for sensible purchasers to read.

It's not reasonable because most purchasers wouldn't have a clue. Even many of our forum members are still struggling with this idea of range from what I've read.

I'll try and make it a bit easier:

• There's no magic in any bike or battery.
• You have a fixed amount of watt-hours in your battery. You can use them fast and have easy pedalling and not go so far or you can use them slowly, go further and pedal more.
• If you switch off your battery, you can go a very long way before it goes flat.
• If you cut the power right down and then use pedal power, you can also go a long way.
• The more watt-hours you have, the further you can go with the same settings and pedalling.
• Unless you're very fit, if you have a commute of 10 miles or more, you need about 10wH per mile. 15wH per mile is very comfortable. 5wH per miles requires a lot of effort. (Approx figures)

 

[tillson]

Interesting article:

Pedal power: how

I see 50 cycles are repeating the claim that"...we’ve got batteries that can run for about 80 miles per charge, last four years and take over 1100 charges." I assume they are referring to the 18Ah battery. I wish they would qualify this. Anyone who has one of these batteries knows you would be very hard pushed to get that kind of range out of it.

I have a June 2008 Pro Connect. The Panasonic 10 Ah battery is just over three years old and I mainly ride the bike in low assist mode. Low assist is not a waste of time, it does provide a useful amount of assistance and suits me perfectly, but I accept that it does not suit everyones requirement.


When new, the battery would easily achieve 50 miles without having to switch off the motor. Now at just over three years old, I would expect to achieve about 35 to 40 miles. So I think that the 18 Ah battery would perform as advertised if used under the same conditions.

Obviously if we take a second case of a person who uses high assist mode, alters the gearing for more speed, weighs more than I do etcetera, the range and battery life is going to drop. As a retailer / manufacturer, which scenario do you choose to advertise, my situation or the second case? They are going to choose the situation which reflects most favourably on their products of course. Everyone else does this and if one manufacturer / retailer decided to quote the worst case scenarios for their products, they wouldn't sell any because they would appear inferior to the competition.

 

[flecc]

It's not reasonable because most purchasers wouldn't have a clue.

Granted those things Dave, which just highlight that an e-bike is a hybrid powered machine, human and motor power in variable proportions, and with a motor having a very poor power to total weight ratio. That's why I said reasonable, since only the purchaser can give the vital information on himself (weight, ability etc) and his circumstances like terrain. Therefore they must play a part in getting information, the supplier cannot do it all or anything like it. I see the suppliers selling duty to give best case, but social responsibility duty to also supply the additional information necessary for customers to derive something appropriate.

That many customers can't do that is nothing new, it's true in all fields. A high proportion of supermarket food customers haven't a clue about calories or even percentages. It's a social and educational problem rather than one for commerce to cope with.
.

 

[carpetbagger]

I am tempted to revert my bike back to its original format just to see what it will do..I am pretty sure it would achieve 50c claims. I did get over 50 miles from my 10a battery.
I think some of the problem is that data was based on an 18a battery with an earlier Agattu/PC which were lower powered.The newer versions wouldn't meet the claim but maybe the disclaimer should have been updated to cover this fact.

 

[funkylyn]

It's not reasonable because most purchasers wouldn't have a clue. Even many of our forum members are still struggling with this idea of range from what I've read.

I'll try and make it a bit easier:

• There's no magic in any bike or battery.
• You have a fixed amount of watt-hours in your battery. You can use them fast and have easy pedalling and not go so far or you can use them slowly, go further and pedal more.
• If you switch off your battery, you can go a very long way before it goes flat.
• If you cut the power right down and then use pedal power, you can also go a long way.
• The more watt-hours you have, the further you can go with the same settings and pedalling.
• Unless you're very fit, if you have a commute of 10 miles or more, you need about 10wH per mile. 15wH per mile is very comfortable. 5wH per miles requires a lot of effort. (Approx figures)

Exactly !

When I had my Powacycle Windsor I actually got over 48miles from the battery, by switching it off when not needed and using low power as much as possible, I was doing a day out with my brother trying out various traffic free paths to show him around Devon.....I eventually ran out of power 2 miles from the end of The Granite Way at Okehampton......great ride by the way !

So, anyone who knows the windsor would appreciate that I got much more than the quoted range.

As you say, theres a fixed amount of watt hours in all batteries......it really isnt rocket science

Lynda

 

[flecc]

As you say, theres a fixed amount of watt hours in all batteries......it really isnt rocket science

Lynda

But as you've shown Lynda, a supplier cannot quote a range remotely true for everyone from the Watt hours, so that figure only has very limited usefulness. It has to be interpreted by a potential customer.

 

[funkylyn]

Exactly flecc....I quite agree.....its down to individual usage .......just as long as suppliers dont get TOO carried away with claims !

Lynda

 

[flecc]

Exactly flecc....I quite agree.....its down to individual usage .......just as long as suppliers dont get TOO carried away with claims !

Lynda

Realistically they have to give best case for commercial reasons, as I said before:

"I see the suppliers selling duty to give best case, but social responsibility duty to also supply the additional information necessary for customers to derive something appropriate."

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Realistically they have to give best case for commercial reasons, as I said before:

"I see the suppliers selling duty to give best case, but social responsibility duty to also supply the additional information necessary for customers to derive something appropriate."

I thought that the broadband suppliers got into trouble for giving best case figures and using the words "up to". It certainly didn't make them popular!