At last, a hill-climber...

[AndyOfTheSouth]

First, thank you to contributors to this forum who have unknowingly helped me over the past months. I have enjoyed and benefited from reading the contributions from FLECC and others, first via Google, then more recently directly.

Buying an electric bike proved to be surprisingly tricky since there are so few places to try them out. My requirement was quite specific – it must make it possible to ride up long steep hills (12%). Also, it needed to be useable over rough ground – not hard core mountain biking, but a variety of surfaces.

To cut a long story short, The Electric Transport Shop in Oxford (nice people to deal with, by the way) fitted a 24v, high torque variant, front wheel motor to my old-style (ie non-shock absorbing front fork) mountain bike. It put the weight up more than I was expecting – now it’s about 44lbs/20kg, about half of which is the battery, compared with about 29 lbs for the bike alone.

Overall, it seems a success. Now I can pedal back up the hill and I have had great fun on hilly fields and rough paths which previously would have been impossible. My caution is that more effort is required than I’d been hoping – I’d expected to be pedalling, but I’d hoped for more of a sense of power.

Talking of power, at Presteigne, I tried a number of bikes. One thing I which stood out was the sense of power of the Heinzmann machines which I tried. I was however deterred from them by their weight and unwieldiness when cycling unpowered. Also, without having tried them, I would have automatically specified their high torque, steel geared variant; if I had done so, I would have found it intolerably noisy.

On the whole, the TETS motor, which I think they call the Sparticle, does a useful job – I am certainly going to get much fitter because of the exercise which I am now getting...

I’d be interested to know how other kits might compare eg the eZee motor. Comparisons are very difficult to make, but in case it is of use to anyone else, my own summary might be something like…

Sparticle (high torque version), 24v, 10 amp hours battery, max powered speed 10 mph. Total weight about 15 lbs (battery about 7 lbs). Cost £500; wheel build, £50; fitting £100. Hill climbing: 13.5 stone man able to cycle up half-mile plus hill, mostly 12% gradient, albeit with significant effort in low gear.

I wonder what the equivalent would be for a Heinzmann or eZee or any other?

Anyway, thanks again, FLECC and co, your knowledge has been much appreciated.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the report Andy, I'm glad that you're finding the kit motor is doing the job ok.

The high torque Heinzmann motor would have made for less effort, but as you rightly say, at the cost of noise, especially with the steel gear fitted. The eZee motor would also be a bit better at climbing, but it is also biased for speed performance so doesn't make the most of it's torque potential.

Although often not recognised, the Panasonic motored e-bikes are one of the best options for off road use and have great hill climbing potential since their motor drives through the bike's gears. They enable anything up to even 1 in 3 (33%) hills to be ridden by someone reasonably fit if the bike has one of the modern multi gear systems fitted like the Nexus 8.

Apart from that hill climbing, what makes them especially suited to the rough stuff is the centrally mounted motor and battery, that minimising any chance of shock damage to the unit. Here's one specifically designed for the off road rider, the E-motion Cross de luxe:

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[Fecn]

Congrats on your new bike (well.. old bike with new wheel) and welcome to the world of e-biking.

I think e-bikes are very clever in the way they trick you into doing more exercise. I did a 40-mile run last weekend (to Greenwich and back) which I'll do it again sometime this week... and for next weekend, I'm planning to ride with a friend down to Brighton (47 miles).

As long as the sun is shining, e-bike is now my preferred travel option for any journey less than 20 miles - I managed to get my wife hooked too, and even the kids love it

I'm absolutely certain that I'm getting far more exercise than I would with a normal bike. Back in my university days when I owned a racing bike, I always caught the bus because the 5-mile trip to the campus was too hilly.

Can't remember the last time I put Diesel in my Van.. I think it was February.

 

[Fecn]

Although often not recognised, the Panasonic motored e-bikes are one of the best options for off road use and have great hill climbing potential since their motor drives through the bike's gears. They enable anything up to even 1 in 3 (33%) hills to be ridden by someone reasonably fit if the bike has one of the modern multi gear systems fitted like the Nexus 8.

Totally agree with that - I really don't enjoy mixing with cars, so my Agattu is used off-road about 50% of the time on the local bridleways (although the off-road surfaces seem to be far smoother and more even than roads around here), and I regularly climb up 25-33% hills with my 3-year old daughter on the back, and a couple of panniers full of shopping from the co-op. I'm no lightweight coming in at nearly 14 stone, but after 9 months of e-biking, I would now consider myself to be reasonably fit.

 

[Barnowl]

As long as the sun is shining, e-bike is now my preferred travel option for any journey less than 20 miles - I managed to get my wife hooked too, and even the kids love it

I'm absolutely certain that I'm getting far more exercise than I would with a normal bike. Back in my university days when I owned a racing bike, I always caught the bus because the 5-mile trip to the campus was too hilly.

Can't remember the last time I put Diesel in my Van.. I think it was February.

I totally agree. My bike is my prefered option for journeys less than 20 miles. I'm sure without the electrics it would spend much of its life in the garage (like most bicycles). All the fun and enjoyment of cycling without the awfull slog up the hills. Loads of exercise too. Great stuff and worth every penny. Driving a car, often a neccessity, is really boring in comparison.

 

[prState]

I’d be interested to know how other kits might compare eg the eZee motor. Comparisons are very difficult to make, but in case it is of use to anyone else, my own summary might be something like…

When I was sizing my Torq for the Velos speedo/odometer, I noted it has about the largest tyre out there circumference wise. I imagine without doing much else, it must be pretty strong on their 20" version (the chopper), for climbing anyway. Not sure how a 20" tyre fairs in the rough though.

 

[the_killjoy]

I must say I was out in the sun yesterday on the wisper, with a little bit of off-road riding with a big smile. Just riding around was like been a teenager again on my 98cc james when I started exploring the countryside~ and in truth it was probably not much slower

Those were the days when if someone passed you you looked down and pretended there was something wrong with the engine.

 

[flecc]

When I was sizing my Torq for the Velos speedo/odometer, I noted it has about the largest tyre out there circumference wise. I imagine without doing much else, it must be pretty strong on their 20" version (the chopper), for climbing anyway. Not sure how a 20" tyre fairs in the rough though.

Yes, the 1.95" Kenda tyre is about the largest diameter out there.

The 20" wheel versions are all very good climbers, even the Quando with 250 Watt motor storms the hills, so the Chopper with the eZee motor in your 350 Watt version would smooth out most climbs even better.

I ride 20" Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres on paths (trails) on my Q bike and find them no problem, but I wouldn't tackle a boulder strewn trail.
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

Glad to hear that others have experience (and enjoyed) the paradox that electric bike equals more exercise!

I should perhaps have made explicit that my bike has 26” wheels – I am sure the Sparticle’s hill climbing would be better on smaller ones.

The picture of the E-motion is shrewdly chosen. It is a bike I hanker after and will try and call in to On-Bike when I am within range. I wonder if they have tried fitting one with mountain bike wheels and tyres?

On the subject of tyres… would it be worthwhile changing the knobbly mountain bike tyres of my bike for smoother ones to improve the hill climbing? I know the rolling resistance would be a bit better, but would it be sufficiently noticeable warrant the change?

 

[flecc]

On the subject of tyres… would it be worthwhile changing the knobbly mountain bike tyres of my bike for smoother ones to improve the hill climbing? I know the rolling resistance would be a bit better, but would it be sufficiently noticeable warrant the change?

It's difficult to judge without knowing the tyres you have Andy, but in general the all round on-road improvement when switching from knobblies to good road tyres is worthwhile.

On an e-bike the gain is bigger for the rider in one sense. That's because the drag workload is reduced but the motor doesn't reduce it's share of the work, so the gain is all for the rider's benefit.
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[frank9755]

Andy,
Good to hear you've got sorted out.
I understand that the ETS Sparticle is their rebadged version of the Tongxin motor, which is also used as the motor for the Cytronex and the Nano. The 160 rpm version in a 26 inch wheel would be a good climber, and should probably give you assistance up to about 13mph on the flat.
It's a very suitable motor for that application as it has very low rolling resistance, meaning you don't notice it causing drag when it's not helping, but when you need it, it gives good assistance.
That is the main difference compared to most other common motor types.
Hope you keep enjoying it!

 

[pwylie]

I added the Heinzmann hill climber version hub to my basic 8 gear hybrid as outlined above using Kinetics in Glasgow.

It was an expensive exercise (£1,300) but the bike has proved a solid dependable workhorse. The noise is there but is doesn't seem to bother me, perhaps because my main use of the bike is in traffic for a fair amount of the time. My journey is 13.5 mile each way commute into Glasgow which takes under an hour without working up a sweat.

It takes me up most hills I have tried to tackle at around 13 to 14 mph with no serious additional effort from on the flat.

The weight of this bike is around 19 kgs, including a fairly hefty battery.

 

[Phil the drill]

One motor often overlooked when talking about hill climbing performance is the Powabyke brushed motor. It is an older heavy design, and not much fun to try to pedal against when unpowered. It IS, however, a stonkingly good hill climber in a 26" wheel, especially on the steep stuff.At one time I used one on a 9 mile (each way) commute which included a succession of steep valleys to cross, with several long climbs including sections of 20% gradient, which it coped with admirably.
I have long since cannibalised this old bike (following a frame and fork write-off in a collision) and converted my wife's old Saracen Diva hybrid into an ebike using this motor and a 36v Li-ion battery (courtesy of Alien bikes). It weighs about half the weight of the old powabyke, and glides effortlessly (with some pedal input) up slopes that far exceed those that many will encounter on their daily commute. I haven't found an ebike motor yet that allows a 26" wheeled bike to do steep hills as well (although I'm told by those 'in the know' that the high torque Heinzmann motors are also very good).

Don't know about the current generation of Powabyke, with the small battery - although I undertand the motor and controller are the same as the old one.

Phil

 

[flecc]

One motor often overlooked when talking about hill climbing performance is the Powabyke brushed motor.

Don't know about the current generation of Powabyke, with the small battery - although I understand the motor and controller are the same as the old one.

Phil

I'll second that, one of the best climbers around.

I did see one report that suggested the power output of the latest motor in the lightweight bikes is lower, and that would make sense with the smaller lithium battery.

However any power reduction would be offset to some extent by the lower bike weight, and X bike owners who've commented seem very happy with the climb ability.
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

Hi folks

Apologies for my spell of quiet after my enthusiastic start. Alas, my adventure came to an abrupt stop a few days ago when the front (motor) wheel came out of alignment and widened one of the dropouts of the fork. Somewhat irritating to say the least.

I took a photo of the drop out to the local bike repair shop, who confirmed that the fork needed to be replaced. Their reaction to being told that it was an electric bike was amusing – at first they were reluctant to repair it. (‘What, ‘tis ‘lectric? Tis sorcery, that is…’) However, I persevered - it’s not often I find a parking space in town and I had the mad idea that if I dashed home, removed the cabling, the space would still be there.

Hah! Not so fast. I learned one or two things during the several hours I spent removing the kit from the bike…

For example, the cable from the motor runs all the way to the controller which is under the saddle. (I was aware of this when I bought it and the shop offered to order for me a junction box to place closer to the wheel. The utter silliness of the arrangement didn’t strike me until now, however.)

To separate the wheel from the bike all the cabling from the front of the bike ie including that coming from the brake handles and the throttle have to be separated from each other and from the frame. Then a Heath Robinson collection of little wires have to be separated from within the controller housing, which has to be taken off the bike.

Second, I wondered why there were brake cut-outs. The safety benefits seems marginal at most and it adds to the cabling. Also, the levers are uglier than standard ones.

When I get the bike back from the repair shop and take it back to TETS, I’ll ask them to refit it without these levers.

I have been fairly relaxed about the situation – such things happen. We learn what a supplier is like when things go wrong. I have simply asked TETS for a contribution towards the new fork replacement, not the inconvenience of it all. I will get the bike back tomorrow and will take it back to Oxford next week.

I will report back when the bike is back on the road.

 

[flecc]

The dropout problem is quite common, these motors have considerable torque. You were lucky in that the spindle didn't rotate more fully and sever the cables.

It's a good idea to fit a torque arm, locking on the spindle flats and preventing rotation. Here's an example of one on a rear wheel motor spindle:

You can see how the small bolt prevents rotation of the plate which has flats to match the spindle ones. There are various ways these can be made for front forks.

I don't use brake cutouts and regard them as a nuisance, but they are felt necessary to cope with any electrical failure which could leave the bike at full throttle.
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

Hi flecc. Thanks for the suggestion. Where can I get them and shouldn't the supplier simply fit them as standard?

 

[flecc]

I don't know of any supplied as spares Andy, some members have made their own from some steel plate of around 1/8" thickness. That one on my T bike was original equipment on a Torq front motor which I used for the rear position. The problem on front forks is that there's nowhere on standard forks to lock them to, so something has to be devised to clamp the plate to the fork on each individual fork design. That's probably why kits don't have them, while some complete e-bikes do.

You could try Cyclepoint, the eZee agents, to see if they can supply one of those motor anti-rotation plates which you could add a clip to for securing to your forks. That one is from a Torq, but other eZee models might use them as well.

Cyclepoint
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[everest]

Andy,
Good to hear you've got sorted out.
I understand that the ETS Sparticle is their rebadged version of the Tongxin motor, which is also used as the motor for the Cytronex and the Nano. The 160 rpm version in a 26 inch wheel would be a good climber, and should probably give you assistance up to about 13mph on the flat.
It's a very suitable motor for that application as it has very low rolling resistance, meaning you don't notice it causing drag when it's not helping, but when you need it, it gives good assistance.
That is the main difference compared to most other common motor types.
Hope you keep enjoying it!

so, where can get one of these fabled toxgxin motors, still not found a supplier :-(

 

[flecc]

so, where can get one of these fabled toxgxin motors, still not found a supplier :-(

Member johnp imported some and sells on at low cost. You can e-mail him on this link to see if he has what you want.

The official importer Tony Castles who was unable to supply for some while is now back in action with all orders handled by The Electric Wheel Company, telephone number 0845 094 2735
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