e-totem 2017 range:
http://www.goldenwheelgroup.com/eng/Product.asp?BigClassName=e-totem+2017&SmallClassName=SUSPENSION
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Bafang Max Drive bikes
- Thread starter Ultrafunkula
- Start date
http://www.goldenwheelgroup.com/eng/Product.asp?BigClassName=e-totem+2017&SmallClassName=SUSPENSION
Yes, TGW do appear to make some pretty well built, nicely styled bikes. I'm really impressed with my TGW/Greenway Max Drive. It's nice to see someone in this Country offering a couple of decently (enough) built mid-drive e-bikes imported and sold for hub-drive money, rather than the inflated circa £2000+ that seems commonplace.
It'd be nice to see more of TGW's upper-end models available (as sensibly priced e-totem/mode rather than OEM rebrands and overpriced), but there only seem to be a limited number of their lower and mid-market models around (eg http://e-totem.es/?lang=en).
I think the issue might be that once you get over that psychological £1000ish price barrier, people want to see some of their money spent (wasted) on a hyped, well-marketed "premium" brand name, rather than simply invested solely on building a decent, better value but "no-name" bike. People do seem to like "paying-through-the-nose" for brand names (I say that having worked in marketing for several premium brands over quite a few years).
cyclebuddy,
My 2p, direct selling vendors like ebayers pass the dealers' margin to their customers, something that Bosch/Yamaha/Brose bike suppliers do not do.
My 2p, direct selling vendors like ebayers pass the dealers' margin to their customers, something that Bosch/Yamaha/Brose bike suppliers do not do.
Some truth in that, although ebikes are not the best example since none have a huge marketing spend.
The most marketed ebike - the Gtech - is relatively cheap.
Taking Cube as an example, all their bikes, including cheapish push bikes, get the same show on their website.
There's general brand building to consider, but it's not marketing hype for Cube to suggest the company builds decent quality bicycles at competitive prices.
Riese and Muller make some of the most expensive ebikes, but they are largely invisible as a company - few people outside the tiny world of ebike enthusiasts have heard of them.
Buying such a bike could give the dopey, gullible, profligate customer a nice warm feeling, but the impact on others will be nothing like having a BMW on the drive.
One might think the buyer of a Riese and Muller or other high end ebike may not be entirely stupid in a lot or respects, having £4K plus to spend on bicycle suggests some career/financial success.
A little harsh Rob, I agree RM are almost under the radar here, In Germany, Holland etc that is far from the case. In our experience, the RM bikes we have sold are absolutely superb, in a completely different league to most other Bosch powered bikes, Haibike and Moustache and I amy sure a few others excepted. There is a new deal going on at the moment that will give them a higher profile in the UK.
Note to OP. The reason all the big brands sell through dealers is to offer a full uninterrupted service to customers. I absolutely agree with their position, it is vital in my view that any motor vehicle is checked and serviced regularly, locally.
For knowledgeable enthusiasts who are happy to look after their bikes them selves or know someone that can do the work for them, buying directly and remotely is a good option, but for most people I would advise using a local dealer.
There is a third choice. Companies like Stella in Holland who sell 40,000 bikes a year sell directly. They deliver to the end user in their own vans using their own staff and service ebikes at the customer's premises. It's a an expensive set up that only works with big numbers but it is another solid solution.
All the best, David
Yes, I do understand: Dealers invest time with the customer at point of sale and in after sales service. They have rent and rates and taxes and salaries to pay... lay out cash in stock and re-invest to grow the business. I get all that (I've been there too). Ebay/Amazon/e-commerce platforms cost too... and this practice of "Customers" buying product, kicking the crap out of it and then returning it for a full refund under DSR costs many on-line dealers heavily too...
My issue isn't that everyone needs to make a living. And neither is my issue with the select group of individuals who enjoy and appreciate high precision/specialist bikes (or cars or anything else), and yes, there often are higher material/labour/production costs associated with that.
My point really is that the "brand owners" (Apple, Porsche as well as maybe Bosch and Haibike/R&M as obvious examples) do milk "the brand" for all its' worth... simply because they can rather than offering better material value. i.e. the margin being applied does seem disproportionately high to the extra cost involved in making that product - at least, higher than it needs to be.
As this thread is about Bafangs Max Drive: Does the Bosch drive/system really need to cost as much as it does? £550/400w and £700/500w for a poxy battery? £150 for a charger? £150 to de-restrict? It's the same with tyres, frames, gears... add a posh brand, and milk it to death.
My issue isn't that everyone needs to make a living. And neither is my issue with the select group of individuals who enjoy and appreciate high precision/specialist bikes (or cars or anything else), and yes, there often are higher material/labour/production costs associated with that.
My point really is that the "brand owners" (Apple, Porsche as well as maybe Bosch and Haibike/R&M as obvious examples) do milk "the brand" for all its' worth... simply because they can rather than offering better material value. i.e. the margin being applied does seem disproportionately high to the extra cost involved in making that product - at least, higher than it needs to be.
As this thread is about Bafangs Max Drive: Does the Bosch drive/system really need to cost as much as it does? £550/400w and £700/500w for a poxy battery? £150 for a charger? £150 to de-restrict? It's the same with tyres, frames, gears... add a posh brand, and milk it to death.
I understand your point Cyclebuddy.
The "posh brands" spend fortunes on R and D. Without their spending power, products would not be developed at such a high rate. I am absolutely positive the likes Bafang would not have a centre motor if Bosch had not spent nearly a billion Euros on their ebike systems.
I am certainly not knocking smaller businesses jumping on the band waggon. Without them emulating what the big corporates are doing there would be no need for continued investment and improvement by businesses who make decent profits.
We also need to consider the likes of Haibike, Moustache and R&M design and develop their own bikes from the frame up. This adds considerably to their costs.
All the best, David
The "posh brands" spend fortunes on R and D. Without their spending power, products would not be developed at such a high rate. I am absolutely positive the likes Bafang would not have a centre motor if Bosch had not spent nearly a billion Euros on their ebike systems.
I am certainly not knocking smaller businesses jumping on the band waggon. Without them emulating what the big corporates are doing there would be no need for continued investment and improvement by businesses who make decent profits.
We also need to consider the likes of Haibike, Moustache and R&M design and develop their own bikes from the frame up. This adds considerably to their costs.
All the best, David
You too have a point. But Bosch already HAD the bulk of their technology developed within the automotive industry, power tools, industrial. Their R&D spend was largely already done. I'm not sure Bafang had that existing investment or design head-start, and I'd be amazed if they DIDN'T reverse engineer a Bosch rather than start with a clean-sheet.
But once that cost is absorbed, it's done. Did R&M totally design "a bike" from a clean sheet, or use what others had already done as a starting point and (perhaps) refine it a little? There really isn't much blue-sky thinking going on here...
PS: As an ex-marketeer, I can tell you that Bosch "spending nearly a billion euros on developing their e-bike systems" is typical copywriter talk. The total investment may well have been, but I'll bet most of that cost is shared among many Bosch products/systems, with this exact same technology (or very close derivatives of it) being used in many of Bosch's products. It's not exclusive R&D investment: It sounds impressive, and it's not an out-and-out lie. But it's hardly true, is it?
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Riese and Muller frames look unique to me, so in that respect they started with a clean sheet.
The Charger has raised chainstays, dedicated carriers, and the tubing is uniquely shaped.
The Delite is the only full sus bike I'm aware of which is designed for trekking/touring as opposed to mountain biking.
Inevitably, many design parameters will be within a fixed range, so the amount of true blue sky thinking will be limited, and much of the rest of their bikes use standard bike bits.
The R&M designed frames may be mass-produced in Taiwan or China, but I suspect they aren't, not least because of relatively small production runs.
Point 1 Bosch do not want you to derestrict their motors so putting that cost on them is false.
Point 2 the charger is expensive, probably needlessly so, it is a Chinese manufacture. However were you to look at official apple, lenovo , HP chargers for their laptops they are at similar price points.
Point 3 . There does seem to be significant markup on the batteries, I would attribute that to the distribution chain . However as I indicated in a previous post are you sure you are equating like with like? A battery pack is not just the indescriminate welding together of the cheapest cells and sticking a BMS on it. I am assuming that Bosch have preferred suppliers, working to agreed quality standards, measuring the performance of each of the cells and ensuring that the cells balance at each tier in the bank of cells.
In regard to the engineering r&d effort in creating a product, I consider your approach simplistic. I attended a talk some many years ago by a senior executive of Siemens, when they manufactured memory ics . During his talk he took a chip from his pocket and said , this chip cost 1billion dollars , we made a factory and it cost a billion to make this first chip.... Of course all the rest were free..... An exaggeration to prove a point.
Companies like Bosch are continually engaging in R&D and product innovation, just to imply that they have electric motors on hand is to misunderstand the process, the motors need to be modified, tested, modified again tested again lifetime tested, wear analysed, materials selected ... Test procedures generated, vetted, test and manufacturing jigs created , patents filed. All these processes cost and future R&D depends on a revenue stream to fund it hence the pricing of their product
Companies in the second tier, ride on the coat tails of the innovators.
Companies on the third tier and lower dispense with much of the internal vetting and just compete on price into a commodity market. Some of the less greedy lower tier companies invest into R&D and move up the tiers, others cannot because their profit margins are so low.
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To back up the point about the potential link between Price and Customer Service: I attempted to order from the GreenwayCycles website on Wednesday. I couldn't complete the order as: 1) No option to pay by paypal online (although the WebSite does imply you can pay by paypal). 2) In the confirmation screen, despite entering my delivery address it said the delivery would be to the store. Two contact form submissions to customer services have been ignored, with only an automated response being received which was flagged up by hotmail as "The sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be".
I am sure this would all be sorted out with a phone call, but it doesn't inspire confidence.
I am sure this would all be sorted out with a phone call, but it doesn't inspire confidence.
You are quite right... I do see your point of view and I can see how your opinion is being formed.
I don’t work for Greenway and I’m not defending them, but I have been there, bought a bike, and talked to them, so this may help explain...
My understanding is that 99.8% of Greenways’ sales are done by Amazon or Ebay. If memory serves, they sold some 12,000 bikes that way last year. That’s why they charge an extra few quid on those sites to cover listing and paypal fees. Their website has only been running for a matter of weeks – a lot of info is missing, some is incorrect... they admit it’s a work in progress to be sorted this year (it’s only me and UF drawing attention to the fact they have a website at all). For now, it’s all Amazon and ebay.
If you ‘phone I’m sure you can pay by card at the even lower price, and if you visit, save on delivery charges too. They hope to open a proper bike shop at some point, but for now, they have a sales display and small assembly and warranty repair area (see pics)... with a HUGE warehouse beneath from which to ship their bikes from. So it’s not a regular “bike-shop” experience: most other on-line only bike sellers operate exactly the same way. Container load of bikes in one-end and boxed bikes shipped out the other (in Greenways world, its 20 containers with 5000 bikes at a time).
That’s what’s built into Greenways’ current pricing... no hand-holding, no wooing, no Haibike service. For the Greenway Cross bike, you’re buying (in Wooshs’ estimation) a £1300 bike for £1000, and paying £160 for Samsung batteries where others are charging £300+. A great bike, a manufacturers’ warranty, good telephone support (according to UF), but no “frills” included. They don’t even participate in this kind of general bike-buying guidance and advice forum support that Woosh, Amps, Juicy et al so generously provide here – that all has a time cost associated with it.
Once Greenway’s regular shop opens and those personalised Customer Service elements become an integral part of the sale, perhaps their prices will need to rise? I don’t know if paying extra for a bit of in-shop chit-chat is a good thing for the many that already know what’s what on a bike.
Anyway, this is getting a bit too "salesy" and off-topic... Back to Bafang's Max Drive, which two bikes in this picture have, the others use Bafang hub drives.
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I do see your points and I'm not going to argue, but I think we're getting distracted... the basic point I was trying to make (perhaps not very well) is simply that a lot of premium product is marked up above and beyond what is reasonable... certainly above the margins made on their more down-to-earth products. I worked with many electronic and automotive companies in a marketing capacity; Often, a client will deconstruct a competitor product not only to see how its' made, but to see what it costs to produce. I've seen some of those figures, and "posh" product does sometimes cost more to produce, just not that much more. The increased selling price is largely justified by hype and spin (market positioning). Isn't one of Boschs' own e-bike drive systems fundamentally/mechanically the same as another, with just software changes and a red badge instead of a grey one? How is the cost difference really justified when the material/production worth is the same? A customer is paying a sizable premium for extra performance, but the actual cost to Bosch is no different (same (shared) R&D cost, design, material quantity and quality, labour, packaging, distribution, marketing etc etc etc).
In specific reply to your point on Bosch batteries: Yes, I'm sure they're top-quality premium cells. But others use Samsung/Panasonic premium cells too and quality circuitry, but they're not charging quite the stupid prices Bosch are, nor are they "locking" the Customer exclusively to their battery packs.
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Thanks for the info.
If the website doesn't work properly, you can't complete a purchase through it and it has a contact form that is not monitored then those options should be disabled.
None of this actually puts me off the purchase - the fact that I know you have been to their premises gives me an extra level of comfort.
I don't want bells and whistles for my next purchase. I want an easy purchase option at the lowest price and a bike that is built from individual component parts that I can maintain / replace as needs be (i.e doesn't tie me in to expensive proprietary parts).
The GW Cross definitely fits the bill so I will be giving them a call on Monday to see if I can complete the purchase.
I agree. I think Greenway would agree. They're working on it. The bike is way too cheap for what it is especially with the Bafang Max Drive and Shimano hydraulic brakes, so I had my doubts too (which is why I went). If you buy through Amazon/ebay as UF did and virtually all their Customers do, you have the surety that your money is safe. Kamil in the photo is the guy to call; open till 6pm.
Thanks for the info cyclebuddy, where exactly is the Greenway store, I like the idea of calling there and collecting a Max Drive ebike.
I was looking at the BBS kits, but they were coming out at £900 with battery, the Greenway Max Drive, seems a bargain in comparison to a kit.
Not to mention far cheaper than buying a Bosch or Yamaha CD ebike.
I was looking at the BBS kits, but they were coming out at £900 with battery, the Greenway Max Drive, seems a bargain in comparison to a kit.
Not to mention far cheaper than buying a Bosch or Yamaha CD ebike.
Quick update on Max powered Greenway, today I fitted a second chainwheel to the front, I removed the chainwheel guard that's fitted to the spider and junked it as it was heavy and ugly, fitted a 48t 104 pcd chainwheel to the outside, and I put the original 38t back on the inside of the spider, nice chain gap, big chainwheel for Road as this bike is fast,too fast for the 38t, which is going to be my off-road one, i have to stop and move chain over at the minute but am searching for front changer set up to fit the seatpost size took me all of 5 mins to do the mod, so well happy, got my 44t sitting spare incase I go to a triple later on in time.
Alignment is probably better for the top gears, chainwheel was £24
Alignment is probably better for the top gears, chainwheel was £24
What kind of speeds were you getting out of the 38t, 44t, and now the 48t Ultrafunkula? I haven't done enough mileage on mine yet to decide whether to mod for faster road speed, or keep this bike for my casual Sunday tow-path/bridleway/back lane rides. Please keep us up-to-date on a front changer.
@Rohloffboy Easy/fast dual carriageway if approached from either north or east. Parking right outside their door. The nice thing about visiting is you can have a sit, fondle and check sizing suits you before buying. There's no substitute for seeing a bike in the flesh before flashing the cash.
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