Batteries on Airplanes

[wonderpup]

Hi,

I'm just in the process of getting a wisper, and I was wondering about the practicalities of taking it with me when I travel by plane. Air NZ consider a bike as a bit of luggage, but I'm thinking about how they would react to the batter and charger, as well as wondering how the battery would deal with being in unpressurized cargo.

Does anyone have any experience with taking your bike by air?

 

[daniel.weck]

There are rules for carrying Lithium-Ion packs and other types of chemistry on planes, search the web for "battery restrictions" for your airline. ++ Dan

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Batteries on planes

Hi Wonderpup

Thanks for choosing a Wisper!

I have twice bought electric bikes back from Shanghai as sports equipment at no extra charge with Virgin. I must admit I didn't declare it was electric but nor was I asked to do so.

We find generally that sending a boxed bike with a battery is not a problem, however sending a battery by it's self is a night mare.

My heart says just take it along and see what happens, however my head says check with the airline before you go and tell them it is an electric bike.

All the best

David

 

[Dynamic Position]

Hi Wonderpup

Thanks for choosing a Wisper!

I have twice bought electric bikes back from Shanghai as sports equipment at no extra charge with Virgin. I must admit I didn't declare it was electric but nor was I asked to do so.

We find generally that sending a boxed bike with a battery is not a problem, however sending a battery by it's self is a night mare.

My heart says just take it along and see what happens, however my head says check with the airline before you go and tell them it is an electric bike.

All the best

David

20 years ago Saft had PP3 size lithium battery packs and the data sheet clearly warned that these could explode at altitude Saft instructions were not to ship by air. I cannot see Virgin being too happy if one of their planes is brought down as a result of a lithium battery. Perhaps Wisper and other manufacturers can post the relevant data sheets for their battery packs for users on Pedelec Forums?

 

[flecc]

20 years ago Saft had PP3 size lithium battery packs and the data sheet clearly warned that these could explode at altitude

Those were a different construction.

The batteries we use on our e-bikes have two cell forms. One type in polymer batteries are soft plastic cased, the other non polymer types have steel cell cases with safety pressure vents.

Neither type will explode under reduced external pressures.

The only inherent danger from rechargeable lithium batteries is the fires that resulted from spontaneous combustion caused by a combination of cobalt cathodes and poor manufacturing standards. These are no longer made, for some while now our batteries use manganese, compound or iron-phosphate cathodes which do not have that fire risk.

The minimal risk they have now is that which all batteries share, accidental shorting of the terminals producing a fire risk due to excessive discharge.
.

 

[z0mb13e]

The minimal risk they have now is that which all batteries share, accidental shorting of the terminals producing a fire risk due to excessive discharge.
.

How much risk (if any) would the ingress of water or moisture pose?

I ask as the thing that stuck in my mind from school chemistry were (thanks to my mad as a hatter, hair like Doc Brown, chemistry teacher) the lithium in water experiment. Oh wait and the 'safe' handling of radioactive isotopes (the thing was kept in a lead container inside a plastic container inside a wodden block - it fell out of the tongs so he picked it up with his free hand to put it back in the tongs), oh and the time he showed us how to make chlorine gas but the fume cabinet stopped working so he half climbed into it to get the extractor working again. He had a bit of a bad cough after that.

 

[jac]

hi this article might help Lithium-Batteries: Dangerous Goods with Exceptions - ExtraEnergy.org

jim

 

[flecc]

How much risk (if any) would the ingress of water or moisture pose?

I ask as the thing that stuck in my mind from school chemistry were (thanks to my mad as a hatter, hair like Doc Brown, chemistry teacher) the lithium in water experiment.

None fortunately. Metallic lithium as such doesn't exist in our batteries, only derivatives of it.

The fire risk with the old cobalt cathode types resulted from the growth of metallic lithium particles during service, due to poor manufacturing standards.

That can't happen with today's cathode materials.
.

 

[Alex728]

unfortunately I understand there was an incident with Lithium batteries in July 2001 (months before the terrorist incidents!) at a US airport where some were damaged/accidentlaly shorted and caught on fire - and this has led to every global airline beefing up its regulations.

I recently saw a shipping box which had previously contained a laptop and it had all manner of warning stickers about lithium batteries and air transport..

it looks like it is way too late for the cartoon dude in the safety warning sign saying "DANGER", his plane has already been blown into pieces (but I supposed being indestructible like most cartoon characters he doesn't realise this )

 

[piotrmacheta]

The rules for air transport are very strict. Lithium batteries are classed as dangerous goods and require special packaging and labelling and this includes batteries in equipment (eg bicycles). There are some exemptions for low power batteries less than 160 Wh.

 

[alex_h]

160Wh max allowance

Hi Wonderpup

Thanks for choosing a Wisper!

I have twice bought electric bikes back from Shanghai as sports equipment at no extra charge with Virgin. I must admit I didn't declare it was electric but nor was I asked to do so.

We find generally that sending a boxed bike with a battery is not a problem, however sending a battery by it's self is a night mare.

My heart says just take it along and see what happens, however my head says check with the airline before you go and tell them it is an electric bike.

All the best

David

If you brought the electric bike on the plane without declaring it is electric you clearly broke the regulations. I assume any Wisper Bikes battery has more than 160Wh and it looks like that is the maximum allowed. Anything above that is prohibited to be carried on the plane in any circumstances.

Sad thing but all the Li-ion packs for electric bikes will be prohibited by aircraft regulations in that case

I wonder however if there could be a different form of interpretation of these rules as what if we have a 36V 14Ah pack but there is only about 2Ah left inside (I mean almost totally discharged) so then there will only 72Wh so it should be legal to carry such a battery or not?

Anyone to interpret this???

 

[NRG]

Interesting to note that A123 cells are classified as non-dangerous goods for shipping by air.

 

[alex_h]

I wonder however if there could be a different form of interpretation of these rules as what if we have a 36V 14Ah pack but there is only about 2Ah left inside (I mean almost totally discharged) so then there will only 72Wh so it should be legal to carry such a battery or not?

Anyone to interpret this???

so is anyone going to comment on that?

 

[daniel.weck]

Interesting to note that A123 cells are classified as non-dangerous goods for shipping by air.

Does that include battery packs made of pouch/prismatic LiFePO4 cells ?
It's the same chemistry, after all

 

[flecc]

Does that include battery packs made of pouch/prismatic LiFePO4 cells ?
It's the same chemistry, after all

This could be the key, since the fire risks that gave rise to the bans in the first place werre due to the cobalt cathode batteries that I mentioned before.

None of the chemistries in later and all current e-bike batteries have that same risk, which broadly means those produced from the start of 2007 onwards, though much of the 2006 production was also of completely safe types.
.

 

[NRG]

No idea Dan, I saw it on the A123 Material Safety Data sheet.....

 

[dan]

This could be the key, since the fire risks that gave rise to the bans in the first place werre due to the cobalt cathode batteries that I mentioned before.

None of the chemistries in later and all current e-bike batteries have that same risk, which broadly means those produced from the start of 2007 onwards, though much of the 2006 production was also of completely safe types.
.

Whatever you think that current lithium batteries are completely safe, IATA class all lithium batteries as dangerous goods and they run the airlines, however if the regulations are followed they can be transported by air. My company often ship large capacity lithium batteries by air cargo.

this link is to the lastest guidance to shipping by air

http://www.iata.org/NR/rdonlyres/4828A6CC-F553-4B38-A370-C3058898913B/0/GuidanceDocumentontheTransportofLiBatt_2010.pdf

 

[flecc]

Whatever you think that current lithium batteries are completely safe, IATA class all lithium batteries as dangerous goods and they run the airlines, however if the regulations are followed they can be transported by air.http://www.iata.org/NR/rdonlyres/4828A6CC-F553-4B38-A370-C3058898913B/0/GuidanceDocumentontheTransportofLiBatt_2010.pdf

No dispute and I don't blame them for the caution. As said, I was specifically speaking of e-bike batteries only, since there's evidence that the same standards are still not common to manufacturers of all laptop batteries.
.

 

[wonderpup]

Thanks so much people, the long answer seems to be, "Ask the Airline" and the short answer seems to be, "Ask the Airline". I think I'll make sure to get a physical letter saying its OK from the management - its a pain, but in NZ things are so small it shouldn't be too hard to find the right person to talk to.

Thanks again!

aa

 

[alex_h]

Thanks so much people, the long answer seems to be, "Ask the Airline" and the short answer seems to be, "Ask the Airline". I think I'll make sure to get a physical letter saying its OK from the management - its a pain, but in NZ things are so small it shouldn't be too hard to find the right person to talk to.

Thanks again!

aa

i'm just afraid that Airline won't let you take the battery for the bike with you