Batteries

[Kudoscycles]

Every e-bike manufacturer and every motor manufacturer seems to invent a new battery shape. This is a nightmare to try and stock spare batteries for importers and retailers.
I don't exaggerate that there is over 100 different shapes,capacities and connectors.
It is about time that some standardisation takes place....Kudos is determined to do its bit to achieve this.
The most popular battery in use is the water bottle style used on our MTB series,the result is that you can buy this battery from many suppliers and competition/volume usage brings the price down.....we will continue to use this battery on all our future MTB bikes,the price is about £200.
Our Rapide used a new style battery,sort of Bosch style and the Step Thru Sonata also needed a new battery to suit the style of the bike,but I am determined to use these batteries on all future commuter style bikes.....but it is a battle, these manufacturers seem to want to change battery style with every new model,the price is about £250.
The Secret has to have a different type to fit in the frame,about £160.
When buying a new bike customers don't think to ask how much is a replacement battery and will spares be available in the future,it should be one of the first questions.....even though the LifePo4 battery seems to have immortal life.
I was told by a German manufacturer that they purposely keep the prices of replacement batteries very high...they don't want you to buy a replacement battery,after 3 years they want you to buy a new bike....this is in line with German attitudes to finance,lease a new product every 3 years.
We need standardisation to achieve volumes and keep battery prices low.
I am determined to make 4 battery types cover our range.
KudosDave

 

[Wander]

It's a good point made above.

Let's not forget Bosch have standardized their battery design to, I think it is. four:-

Gen 1 down tube & rack mount.
Gen 2 down tube & rear mount.

Obviously variations of capacities & colours however overall four deigns over probably now scores of different brands & hundreds of different models.

Standardization also makes it more attractive for after market suppliers to come into the market as well with a likelihood of replacements being available after the manufacturer stops producing.

 

[Cyclezee]

eZee have been doing this for over 10 years, one battery case that fits any eZee bike. It is known as the VP or vertical pack and the 36v version is available in 4 capacities from 11Ah to 28Ah. The 48v FP is only available as 15Ah.

They also have the FP or flat pack battery which can be used with an eZee kit or as a second battery for eZee bikes. Theses are available in 11 and 15Ah 36v or 11Ah 48v.

A recent addition tot he eZee family is the DT or down tube battery which can be used with kits and is also fitted to the eZee Raptor and E-Rex Fat bike.

David Henshaw, editor of A to B magazine owns the very first eZee Torq to come into the UK in 2005, last year he decide to invest in a new battery and it slotted straight in as a replacement for the original.

Please note that all eZee batteries are covered by a two year warranty.

David Henshaw's 2005 eZee Torq Mk1​

The man and machine in action​

For a complete list of eZee batteries ad their prices please click on the link http://www.cyclezee.com/ezee-batteries.html

 

[flecc]

On this subject I always commend eZee bike, for they've kept exactly the same battery mounting for their rear of seat tube battery on their models for over a decade now. Whether their folder or rigid frame, crossbar or stepthrough, NiMh or Lithium batteried, their newest batteries have always slotted straight in as latest technology replacements.

In the absence of industry standardisation, this was a good solution for best service.

N.B. Crossed with Cyclezee post above.
.

 

[trex]

...
When buying a new bike customers don't think to ask how much is a replacement battery and will spares be available in the future,it should be one of the first questions.....even though the LifePo4 battery seems to have immortal life.
I was told by a German manufacturer that they purposely keep the prices of replacement batteries very high...they don't want you to buy a replacement battery,after 3 years they want you to buy a new bike....this is in line with German attitudes to finance,lease a new product every 3 years.
We need standardisation to achieve volumes and keep battery prices low.
I am determined to make 4 battery types cover our range.
KudosDave

With due respect to WWC, I don't buy into the idea of keeping the same form factor for batteries. He's kept his battery behind the seat post while Bosch make a killing with downtube batteries. I don't buy into the idea of having a standard form factor for batteries either. Battery casing is part of the ergonomics of the bike, it must be designed together with other elements of the bike so they hang well together.
I think the German manufacturer is right. Progress in e-bike technologies is fairly rapid, when you look back 3 years, bikes in 2012 are nowhere as good as they are today. Progress is seen not only in the bike's electronics but also in its mechanical components. If the customer uses the bike as a transport, he would have amortized the bike in three years, replacing the whole bike makes sense. If he uses the bike for leisure ride, then he'll have to choose much more carefully with regard to replacement battery.

 

[Cyclezee]

View attachment 11515

With due respect to WWC, I don't buy into the idea of keeping the same form factor for batteries. He's kept his battery behind the seat post while Bosch make a killing with downtube batteries. I don't buy into the idea of having a standard form factor for batteries either. Battery casing is part of the ergonomics of the bike, it must be designed together with other elements of the bike so they hang well together.
I think the German manufacturer is right. Progress in e-bike technologies is fairly rapid, when you look back 3 years, bikes in 2012 are nowhere as good as they are today. Progress is seen not only in the bike's electronics but also in its mechanical components. If the customer uses the bike as a transport, he would have amortized the bike in three years, replacing the whole bike makes sense. If he uses the bike for leisure ride, then he'll have to choose much more carefully with regard to replacement battery.

Wrong, eZee bikes with down tube batteries.

 

[RobF]

This thread - and a couple of others on batteries - coincides with one of my occasional Bosch battery endurance tests.

I used eco for the first 10 miles of a 50 mile ride today, switching to tour after that, with occasional use of sport on climbs.

The ride was from Sunderland along the C2C path, and then up to the Tanfield railway in County Durham before nipping across to South Shields.

Fair bit of climbing to Tanfield, and a 15mph head wind for most of the way.

The battery dropped to one bar at 39 miles, and I changed it at 42 - riding in a group I needed to pick a convenient moment.

The eco part of the ride was a bit of a grind, but I kept pace with the rest of the group who ride unpowered.

Realistically, there was probably only a handful of miles in the battery when I changed it.

But 40+ mixed miles shows it is still all but as good as new when I bought it about two years ago.

 

[trex]

View attachment 11515

Wrong, eZee bikes with down tube batteries.

that particular DT casing is not popular among downtube batteries. Do you think Ezee are going to keep it for the next 10 years like they did with the VP?

 

[Cyclezee]

that particular DT casing is not popular among downtube batteries.

Says who?

Do you think Ezee are going to keep it for the next 10 years like they did with the VP?

Ah, where's my crystal ball.

 

[trex]

Says who?
...

I usually use bmsbattery.com as my crystal ball, may not be a good choice but I reckon they know which way the wind blows.

 

[Kudoscycles]

It's a good point made above.

Let's not forget Bosch have standardized their battery design to, I think it is. four:-

Gen 1 down tube & rack mount.
Gen 2 down tube & rear mount.

Obviously variations of capacities & colours however overall four deigns over probably now scores of different brands & hundreds of different models.

Standardization also makes it more attractive for after market suppliers to come into the market as well with a likelihood of replacements being available after the manufacturer stops producing.

Are there any alternatives to Bosch supplying Bosch type batteries?
KudosDave

 

[Wander]

Are there any alternatives to Bosch supplying Bosch type batteries?
KudosDave

Yes, we've seen a few enter the market already.

The vast majority of Bosch powered bikes will still be within their warranty period. I would expect as they get older that demand for paid replacements will grow & new battery suppliers will enter the market

 

[Cyclezee]

I usually use bmsbattery.com as my crystal ball, may not be a good choice but I reckon they know which way the wind blows.

Oh, bmsbattery, those well known predictors of the future, are they as reliable as Old Moore's Almanack?

 

[shemozzle999]

Every e-bike manufacturer and every motor manufacturer seems to invent a new battery shape. This is a nightmare to try and stock spare batteries for importers and retailers.
I don't exaggerate that there is over 100 different shapes,capacities and connectors.
It is about time that some standardisation takes place....Kudos is determined to do its bit to achieve this.
The most popular battery in use is the water bottle style used on our MTB series,the result is that you can buy this battery from many suppliers and competition/volume usage brings the price down.....we will continue to use this battery on all our future MTB bikes,the price is about £200.
Our Rapide used a new style battery,sort of Bosch style and the Step Thru Sonata also needed a new battery to suit the style of the bike,but I am determined to use these batteries on all future commuter style bikes.....but it is a battle, these manufacturers seem to want to change battery style with every new model,the price is about £250.
The Secret has to have a different type to fit in the frame,about £160.
When buying a new bike customers don't think to ask how much is a replacement battery and will spares be available in the future,it should be one of the first questions.....even though the LifePo4 battery seems to have immortal life.
I was told by a German manufacturer that they purposely keep the prices of replacement batteries very high...they don't want you to buy a replacement battery,after 3 years they want you to buy a new bike....this is in line with German attitudes to finance,lease a new product every 3 years.
We need standardisation to achieve volumes and keep battery prices low.
I am determined to make 4 battery types cover our range.
KudosDave

If you are looking for the ideal superior battery to your competitors then the case construction should be serviceable along the lines of the dual moulding Hailong battery combined with the newly announced weld less push fit caps and have a wireless communication link to interrogate the cell conditions so that faulty cells banks can be quickly identified by the user and then they could be replaced in-house by the seller for a reasonable fee. I am sure this would be viewed by a buyer as positive reason for making a product purchasing decision. You would only need a stock of cells.

ref:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bargain-buy-parts.17699/page-2#post-264917

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/non-welded-battery-system.20574/

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Oh, bmsbattery, those well known predictors of the future, are they as reliable as Old Moore's Almanack?

They keep upto date with the latest developments, which are unpredictable. Although the planets and stars are probably predictable in our lifetime, Old Moores Almanack wouldn't have saved the dynosaurs.

When you adopt the latest technology, there's always risk, but when it works, you get the advantages.

I agree with what's already been said. I think Ezee bikes would do a lot better if they had more modern styling.

 

[trex]

why so little is said about the advantages of hidden batteries?
Stealth, superior water ingress protection, superior ergomonics.
They are by far the most significant factor in improving bike designs.

 

[flecc]

why so little is said about the advantages of hidden batteries?
Stealth, superior water ingress protection, superior ergomonics.
They are by far the most significant factor in improving bike designs.

Probably because they have so many disadvantages:

1) Dependence on one supplier, meaning probable higher prices.

2) Dependence on supplier continuing in business.

3) Supplier possibly not bothering to continue making the batteries following disappointing sales, viz IZIP.

4) Restricted size and capacities of batteries with most designs.

5) Access problems when connection issues arise within the frame.

6) Problems on the odd occasion when a battery suffers a terminal failure with swelling and heat seizing it in the housing.
.

 

[Cyclezee]

I agree with what's already been said. I think Ezee bikes would do a lot better if they had more modern styling.

Just had a quick trawl via this link http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/buy/find-an-electric-bike-for-sale/ searching for bikes from Asia and wonder which ones have a more modern style than eZee?

Fashion has never been a high priority for eZee, they are more concerned with quality, reliability, durability and performance.

I firmly believe that eZee are the best electric bikes to come from China and their global sales would suggest that I am not alone in this belief.

 

[trex]

Probably because they have so many disadvantages:

1) Dependence on one supplier, meaning probable higher prices.

2) Dependence on supplier continuing in business.

3) Supplier possibly not bothering to continue making the batteries following disappointing sales, viz IZIP.

4) Restricted size and capacities of batteries with most designs.

5) Access problems when connection issues arise within the frame.

6) Problems on the odd occasion when a battery suffers a terminal failure with swelling and heat seizing it in the housing.
.

1. most of them are Chinese made, prices are quite low (£160 - £300)
2. also generally true for any bike, not specific to bikes with in-frame battery.
3. quite a lot of models tend to have the same lockable casing like the Kudos Secret and the woosh Zephyr-B.
4. there seems to be convergence to lockable casing like the Kudos Secret and the woosh Zephyr-B. Capacity seems to be restricted to 10S3P.

5. Actually better with the lockable casing like the Kudos Secret and the woosh Zephyr-B. The battery seems to slide in/out very easily.
6. the lockable casing like the Kudos Secret and the woosh Zephyr-B are not any more difficult to remove than rack battery.

 

[flecc]

Yes, some of my latter listed problems are solvable, but the first three are not at present. The effects of those price and availability ones are far more severe than with e-bikes having conventionally mounted batteries. That is to say, using an alternative battery externally loses all of the in-frame advantage.

Of course if we do get a standardised cross-manufacturer in-frame battery system, that could solve many of the listed problems. However, capacity would still be restricted and so would e-bike design, being locked to one shape and size of battery housing.
.