Battery charging, how often

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Apologies for what is of necessity a long answer:

I liked the sheer power and acceleration of the ones I have tried/ been driven in, very impressive.
Many modern IC powered cars, even really fast ones, have real problems in keeping up!
Indeed Andy, and I like this comment from Autocar magazine:

Purveyors of pure-electric cars have learned many lessons since they started selling in earnest and one of the biggest has been the unexpectedly strong buyer appeal of the silence, smoothness and ease of driving only a pure-electric car can bring.

I've always known e-cars were superior, even when they didn't exist! In the 1900s and 1910s they were the car of choice, infinitely better in every respect than the steam and petrol competition. But of course the severe battery limitations at the time meant short range, so they got no further development and ic gradually improved over the decades.

But e-drive didn't disappear, milk floats and the refined large electric vans that Harrods and John Lewis continued to use right through to the 1960s showing that. And of course trains and trams long since gave up on ic engines. If I was asked to design the worst possible engine to propel a vehicle, it could well be the ridiculous ic engine.


But apparently, at the end of the day, after 5-10 years of use, the battery will probably need to be replaced, and the projections I have seen is that it will cost more than the car is worth (in a running condition of course), for a replacement battery.
My thoughts are that the current electric cars are for people with a lot of money, who simply don't care what it costs.
Battery life has been surprising everyone, not least the manufacturers. Being nervous about this originally with some negative indications from other applications, Nissan cautiously settled upon a 5 year warranty setting the scene for others and starting the falsehood about poor battery life. They quickly changed that to 8 years as evidence came in but are now having to think again with many batteries even still at full capacity at 10 years old.

The mistake they'd made was judging from existing applications with high density cells under high load, e-bikes for example!

Their e-cars use large low density cells, and of course they spend most of their driven life at a tiny fraction of their potential power so are never stressed. Nobody floors it in their drive taking off at a constant 90mph plus to the supermarket. Add to that a moderate charging regime and battery life just isn't a worry.

Of course they will need changing eventually at around £8k at today's prices, but against that is a fuel cost of up to 400 mpg equivalent. That still won't fully pay for a battery, but stopping doing what we've been doing to this planet was never going to be cheap. We've in effect been living on a future cost for a long time in every respect, just like PFI (private finance initiative) to pay for our infrastructure, leaving our kids to foot the bill.

As for e-cars only being for the wealthy, no manufacturer can keep up with demand over the last two years and it's currently going through the roof. Expect to wait a year for the most popular models.

I do find some of the PI Hybrids to be interesting, as I could drive back to the UK when going on holiday, without having to make two charging stops on the way. Now that is starting to get practical.....
And one should not forget that the battery size (size of the fire) in a hybrid, is generally about 20% of the size of a true electric car.
True, but they don't begin to solve the problem so will also be banned shortly. The target is zero carbon, and even that is not enough since we really need to reduce what we've already produced. And of course hybrids are far more expensive to both buy and run with their two drive chains and fuels. They'll get more difficult to fuel too, we're already down to under 6000 petrol stations, nearly half what it once was. Meanwhile UK e-cars already have this, 11,600 charging locations with 18,600 charging points with 32,300 connectors and expanding rapidly by many hundreds a year.

By the way, I had BMWs in the 1980s, as company cars. - - - - - In Germany, many people say, you have to own a BMW ONCE, as ONCE is enough!
Fully agreed Andy, and it's never even been once for me with my trade experience.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I'm curious to know how the Boeing &87 Dreamliner battery fire issue fits into this debate. What kind of cells did they use (Leaf or Tesla type or some other kind?) From memory all they did after extensive research into the problem was to just put the battery in a box!
I don't know, but the need for low weight with high performance for all aircraft parts, especially in the 787 designed for minimum weight, indicates high density, Tesla style. Leaf style low density would be too bulky.
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mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
2,815
1,431
, but houses catch fire for other reasons too, and once these cells are ignited, they are a nightmare to put out.

It's one thing to have a little power bank or mobile phone go up, but can you imagine a terraced street all fitted with power walls? If one house catches fire, how easy will it be to prevent one house from burning down the whole street?
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The logical answer to that is not to put the power walls in houses.
My village has a small electric sub-station and if you look around they are everywhere.
Would it not be sensible to place all the 'Walls' in local substations?
The substations could be fitted with fire fighting equipment, CCTV linked to the fire station with remotely controlled extinguisher apparatus.
 
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  • Disagree
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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IMO, he's not a genius, just a guy with a lot of money and an over inflated opinion of himself.
Actually not even a lot of money, he's teamed with Jeff Bezos, Amazon's boss and the world's richest man.
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Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
1,425
278
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...houses catch fire.....
Its a very valid point, as not all e-bikers are as knowledgeable as Pedelecers are, and some will have those bikes/batteries in their house or in a wooden shed or similar!
Even if someone here says it only happens once in a 100 years, but if its my next door neigbour?
Andy
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Its a very valid point, as not all e-bikers are as knowledgeable as Pedelecers are, and some will have those bikes/batteries in their house or in a wooden shed or similar!
Even if someone here says it only happens once in a 100 years, but if its my next door neigbour?
Andy
Sorry Andy, but this is scaremongering, and there's far too much of it, all out of proportion to the actual risk. There are literally many millions of pedelecs in Germany and The Netherlands with their batteries almost certainly being charged in their houses, just as I've always done.

Long ago one e-bike with the old known to be unstable cobalt cathode battery technology burnt down one house in Germany with no-one hurt. One in many, many millions and a risky battery type that was abandoned 15 years ago so all of those cobalt cathode batteries long gone.

Very many homes have burnt down from other causes in those two countries in the last two decades, putting the issue in perspective.

All technology carries risks, with Grenfell it was a fridge and some plastic lined cladding panels, but what should we do? Abandon everything we've invented and move back into caves?

No, we balance risks against benefits, and the immense and widespread benefits of technologies like these lithium batteries overwhelmingly exceeds the miniscule risks.
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Ocsid

Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2017
199
134
77
Hampshire
When its raining our bike battery gets recharged in the house, as do the phones, speakers etc.
It's a gamble, but I don't buy into the concept it is a high probability risk, we just ensure we take them off charge when retiring or leaving home.

Then we buy respected branded products sourced from where we have some confidence, we actually get what we think we are buying.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
1,425
278
73
Sorry Andy, but this is scaremongering, and there's far too much of it, all out of proportion to the actual risk. There are literally many millions of pedelecs in Germany and The Netherlands with their batteries almost certainly being charged in their houses, just as I've always done.

Long ago one e-bike with the old known to be unstable cobalt cathode battery technology burnt down one house in Germany with no-one hurt. One in many, many millions and a risky battery type that was abandoned 15 years ago so all of those cobalt cathode batteries long gone.

Very many homes have burnt down from other causes in those two countries in the last two decades, putting the issue in perspective.

All technology carries risks, with Grenfell it was a fridge and some plastic lined cladding panels, but what should we do? Abandon everything we've invented and move back into caves?

No, we balance risks against benefits, and the immense and widespread benefits of technologies like these lithium batteries overwhelmingly exceeds the miniscule risks.
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Its human nature that it's scaremongering, till it happens close by, or to someone close to you.
Everyone is warned about scammers, burglars, smoke alarms, pedophiles and the like, why should they all not be warned of other possible dangers as well....?
Forewarned is forearmed!
I wonder if the people with those special "walls" in their house, have to declare them to their House insurance, anyone know for certain?
Do they need to inform the local fire department/Brigade and the police as well?
I wonder what happens with the insurance if it is kept quiet and still something goes wrong?
This may prove interesting for all here:-
Solar home battery warning after Brisbane house fire
Brisbane Times, Toby Crockford
The homeowner told reporters they had solar panels connected to lithium-ion batteries and suspected the fire started nearby, a view shared by firefighter Malcolm Muscat.
“[There were] approximately three battery banks so lithium-ion, lead-acid batteries, they burn with a ferocity that moves through the house quickly,” Mr Muscat said.
Remember: When the future of the planet is at stake, there’s no such thing as too much insurance.
We just hope the owners had plenty.
Friends and family can be consoled that the house has been sacrificed for a good fashionable cause.

Note this is the “suspected” cause in this fire, but solar panels have been linked to many other house fires.

So it does actually happen to some people!!
Regards
Andy
 

Briggs

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 9, 2020
19
18
Can I join you from Scotland? Give it a break, it's just becoming boring now.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
45,928
22,566
Its human nature that it's scaremongering, till it happens close by, or to someone close to you.
Everyone is warned about scammers, burglars, smoke alarms, pedophiles and the like, why should they all not be warned of other possible dangers as well....?
Forewarned is forearmed!
I wonder if the people with those special "walls" in their house, have to declare them to their House insurance, anyone know for certain?
Do they need to inform the local fire department/Brigade and the police as well?
I wonder what happens with the insurance if it is kept quiet and still something goes wrong?
This may prove interesting for all here:-
Solar home battery warning after Brisbane house fire
Brisbane Times, Toby Crockford
The homeowner told reporters they had solar panels connected to lithium-ion batteries and suspected the fire started nearby, a view shared by firefighter Malcolm Muscat.
“[There were] approximately three battery banks so lithium-ion, lead-acid batteries, they burn with a ferocity that moves through the house quickly,” Mr Muscat said.
Remember: When the future of the planet is at stake, there’s no such thing as too much insurance.
We just hope the owners had plenty.
Friends and family can be consoled that the house has been sacrificed for a good fashionable cause.

Note this is the “suspected” cause in this fire, but solar panels have been linked to many other house fires.

So it does actually happen to some people!!
Regards
Andy
Suspected ! :D

You just can't stop Andy, it's an obsession with you. I'm surprised you don't give up and quit living with all these scary battery risks that you see.

"there’s no such thing as too much insurance."

Rubbish. I don't insure anything outside of what I have to, car and building structure only, and that policy has saved me a fortune over my lifetime.
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Briggs

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 9, 2020
19
18
I read it just in case there is actually something to do with electric bikes. Not much of it recently, though.
 
  • Informative
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Ocsid

Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2017
199
134
77
Hampshire
I read it just in case there is actually something to do with electric bikes. Not much of it recently, though.
Well come on it has, all our electric bikes have these batteries and that together with recharging them is as pointed out placing us and our loved ones at a horrendous risk , we have been warned ;)
 
  • :D
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
45,928
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Would it not be sensible to place all the 'Walls' in local substations?
The substations could be fitted with fire fighting equipment, CCTV linked to the fire station with remotely controlled extinguisher apparatus.
It's simply not practical to wire the house solar to them there and then organise the return current. They need to be with the home metering system that sorts the costs and returns from feeding back into the grid.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
45,928
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I read it just in case there is actually something to do with electric bikes. Not much of it recently, though.
True that it's mainly vaguely related, but some of us find it interesting.

So why try to stop that for us when you don't have to read it? There's almost 14 years of posts about electric bikes in here that you can read.

And a 100 page thread about vaping if you think we've been off subject!
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Trek

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 22, 2013
21
22
Like the majority of the population over the many years, I have charged numerous gadgets and batteries in and around my home and garage. Having good smoke alarms fitted around my home and substantial house insurance I do not think let alone worry about it because I got a life and ride the bike.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
45,928
22,566
When its raining our bike battery gets recharged in the house, as do the phones, speakers etc.
It's a gamble, but I don't buy into the concept it is a high probability risk, we just ensure we take them off charge when retiring or leaving home.
Exactly. As I've always advised in here, only charge when in the home and awake.
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WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
367
144
Exactly. As I've always advised in here, only charge when in the home and awake.
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In winter you don't really have any other choice than charge your packs indoors as you should never charge outdoors if there is a risk of freezing.
 
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