Battery Fires

[lenny]

Charging Ebike battery fire from three days ago (July 19) in Hanwell west London.
View attachment 63726

'Overcharged' e-bike battery causes devastating flats fire
"London Fire Brigade confirmed no injuries were reported, but said the blaze started after an e-bike battery was overcharged with an incorrect charger. "

'Overcharged' e-bike battery causes devastating flats fire

A new warning has been issued following the fire

www.nottinghampost.com

 

[portals]

When will they start to prosecute diks for negligence? If he was fcking with the gass supply or fiddling the leccy and caused a similar fire the cops would do him, but his gaffa tape ebike electrical system and dodgy charger isn't an issue? So he gets off scott free? Nuts.

 

[portals]

That dude who's ebike fire killed his wife and two kids, tragic as it is, after his bike was nicked he knew he was buying cheap crap but had to get back to work and the result was....

Now if he had an issue with the gas boiler, bought a crappy spare part internet and blew the block up he's going to jail for a stretch... Or tried to fix the distribution box with wrong breakers or guage of wire...he's doing a stretch.

Manslaughter through ignorance isn't an excuse...right?

 

[AntonyC]

What if he was tired and just picked up the wrong charger - jail time?

The problem is that some batteries don't have adequate protection built in, if they did a wrong charger would hardly matter. The notion of a 'wrong charger' is being kept alive in the hope of them being regulated in our favour. It's become clear this tactic is part of what's sinking our e-cycling industry but that isn't getting through where it matters.

 

[lenny]

"A step forward for consumers” as the UK formally brings in new product safety law
The Product Regulation and Metrology (PRAM) Bill has received royal assent in what a leading product safety lawyer has called "a step forward for consumers” towards “bringing online marketplaces in line with the high street”. 

"A step forward for consumers” as UK admits new regulations 

The PRAM Bill has received royal assent in what a product safety lawyer has called "a step forward for consumers”. 

www.leighday.co.uk

 

[portals]

What if he was tired and just picked up the wrong charger - jail time?

Yes, just like buying the wrong size valve for a gas system or wrong breakers for a distribution box, you should be culpable.

The problem is that some batteries don't have adequate protection built in, if they did a wrong charger would hardly matter. The notion of a 'wrong charger' is being kept alive in the hope of them being regulated in our favour. It's become clear this tactic is part of what's sinking our e-cycling industry but that isn't getting through where it matters.

Often is is the wrong voltage charger or gaffa taped batteries wired inappropriately etc.

The law is nuts, what if I used a portable BBQ in kitchen as rain came on and it burned down the entire block of tenement flats and killed say half dozen people. So it was an 'accident'....but, where is the line where gross stupidity/negligence is trumped by an 'accident'? Like to see that graph....

 

[AntonyC]

Agreed when it comes to gross cases but both your examples would simply wear batteries out faster if they had adequate (ideally dynamic) protection built in. Blaming the consumer keeps attention off the product, as does blaming chargers.

Certification would be especially burdensome compared to targetting unsafe products as now. The lure of commmercial advantage seems to be blinding some to the market dampening effect of price rises, low second hand values, designation as hazardous, sourcing complications and overhead of regulatory compliance. There's also the real risk of certification installing a self-interested gatekeeper with little concern for the industry's welfare.

 

[saneagle]

Blaming the consumer keeps attention off the product, as does blaming

My opinion is that consumers are the main cause of battery fires. Ask yourself why yours and mine batteries don't catch fire, and neither does Neals' nor anybody else's on this forum.

There's a strong correlation between the number of illegal bikes being used for delivery and the number of fires. I've seen forum posts (not this forum) detailing how to wire your battery internally to bipass the BMS so that you can get more power from it, then they explain how you can get less downtime by using a 10A charger instead of a 2A one.

 

[AndyBike]

what if I used a portable BBQ in kitchen as rain came on and it burned down the entire block of tenement flats and killed say half dozen people.

That is a very unrealistic scenario i have to say.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I just realised,my sister and her daughters have 3 e-bikes, 2 with 48v 15Ah rack batteries and one with a (Woosh) 36v 20Ah rack battery. I was looking at them this morning and I realised they all have the same charging socket, so it would be easy to connect the wrong battery to the wrong charger. I was a bit horrified and have now taped colour coded tape onto each battery and each charger but there seemed an easy opportunity for disaster

 

[guerney]

I just realised,my sister and her daughters have 3 e-bikes, 2 with 48v 15Ah rack batteries and one with a (Woosh) 36v 20Ah rack battery. I was looking at them this morning and I realised they all have the same charging socket, so it would be easy to connect the wrong battery to the wrong charger. I was a bit horrified and have now taped colour coded tape onto each battery and each charger but there seemed an easy opportunity for disaster

In case anyone is colour blind: Chop DC plugs off the 48V chargers, solder on different plugs to the 36V, then permanently glue plugs to the 48V battery sockets (plus possibly a 90 degree plug angle adapter?) with short leads terminating with whatever soldered sockets you'd like for 48V? A bodge for sure, but someone will amble along soon with a better solution.

Or get collars 3D printed of some design, which prevent connection? One to glue over the socket and one onto the plug? Male plug collars could be coded with different ridges/crenelations for different voltages, to fit specific socket collars. Guerney's SockItToBatteryFire!™ is invented

 

[AntonyC]

A house fire thought to have been caused by an e-scooter battery spread to seven neighbouring properties (BBC news).

My opinion is that consumers are the main cause of battery fires [...]
There's a strong correlation between the number of illegal bikes being used for delivery and the number of fires.

I'm sure you're right on both counts. Aside from opening the case, both accidental and deliberate mis-charging are foreseeable misuse and in those cases the product shouldn't be let off the hook.

Same with delivery bikes, if a battery wears down to half capacity it's effectively charged at twice the rate, more in winter, and some allowance is made for that. AIUI at some stage the BMS should retire a worn battery before it catches fire through excessive plating. Illegality generally means a big motor or continuous throttle, both safe, and citing illegality only distracts from checking for BMS shortcomings; tampering is the word you're looking for.

 

[Michael Price]

I just realised,my sister and her daughters have 3 e-bikes, 2 with 48v 15Ah rack batteries and one with a (Woosh) 36v 20Ah rack battery. I was looking at them this morning and I realised they all have the same charging socket, so it would be easy to connect the wrong battery to the wrong charger. I was a bit horrified and have now taped colour coded tape onto each battery and each charger but there seemed an easy opportunity for disaster

That actually happened to my with
not with an ebike battery but one for her vape thing many years ago

the one she had wore out and she got a new one - different make and stuff
but the charger connection was the same

some time later they got mixed up - she had just assumed they were the same charger - and the battery exploded - we found bits of it all over the lounge
luckily the carpet must have been nylon or something - so where the bits of metal and whatever landed just melted
but it was over a fair part of the room

and that was just one small cell!

we chucked everything vape wise that she had in the relevant recycling and got new stuff that all matched

 

[AntonyC]

Chop DC plugs off the 48V chargers, solder on different plugs to the 36V, then permanently glue plugs to the 48V battery sockets (plus possibly a 90 degree plug angle adapter?) with short leads terminating with whatever soldered sockets you'd like for 48V? A bodge for sure

Like this perhaps? Only it isn't about blocking wrong chargers.



Some are pressing for enforced non-interchageability between brands and distinct sockets, presumably several per brand (of which there are at least a few hundred). As Bosch customers know that's all about capturing the market but it probably depresses it too. Custom connectors are no substitute for electrical safety, witness the variety of power tool battery adapters.

There's at least one proposed charger connection standard, access to the protocol costs Euro 4000 a year which isn't friendly to small businesses, nor to end users. BSI's proposal hasn't progressed to Draft since November but perhaps that's normal

 

[guerney]

Like this perhaps?

I only glanced briefly once and my eyeballs have already partly turned to stone. I'm certain @Peter.Bridge can fettle something prettier than that monstrosity!

Or get collars 3D printed of some design, which prevent connection? One to glue over the socket and one onto the plug? Male plug collars could be coded with different ridges/crenelations for different voltages, to fit specific socket collars. Guerney's SockItToBatteryFire!™ is invented

...2, 3, 5, 7 male and female crenelations or triangular ridges evenly distributed radially for 12V, 24V, 36V, 48V respectively.

 

[saneagle]

I just realised,my sister and her daughters have 3 e-bikes, 2 with 48v 15Ah rack batteries and one with a (Woosh) 36v 20Ah rack battery. I was looking at them this morning and I realised they all have the same charging socket, so it would be easy to connect the wrong battery to the wrong charger. I was a bit horrified and have now taped colour coded tape onto each battery and each charger but there seemed an easy opportunity for disaster

You've done the right thing; however, I'm not sure how dangerous that is because the charger gives constant current until the battery is charged and the BMS will switch off charging when full. I'm not saying it's safe because the charge rate will be too high at the top of the charge. There's always a chance, but I'd be surprised if the battery caught fire because of connecting the wrong charger once or twice. Maybe it already happened and nobody noticed.

Other products not protected by such a BMS would be different.