bbs01, cyclone or none at all?

[Geebee]

Re CD efficiency: How many 250w hubs can hit 40 kph and climb a 20% without pedaling?
My last couple of rides have been well under 8 kwh per km without rider input, average speed high 20 kph including 300m of climbing, maintainable top speed on level 37~40 kph (not much truely level here).
I have never had a hub that could achieve that let alone a 250w one, it does require shifting to keep the CD spinning toward its top end.

One of the 750w riders said that his CD doubled the range of his direct drive hub with the same pack.

Both are good but in my experience a correctly used CD will require less power than a hub.

 

[trex]

the 500W BBS02 is truly awesome on hills.

 

[handbaked]

Sorry now im not viewing on my phone I have just seen your attached picture and it is the bottle battery I was talking about What sort of mileage do you get out of that? Is it the 10ah version?

For me, as long as I can have a set up that enables me to do a 20 mile round trip with a little effort on the pedalling front it is all good. So top notch efficiency I don't feel is my top priority. Now I have seen the potential of this Xiongda 2 speed hub motor (and the price) maybe this is my best option to start with.

 

[JohnCade]

Sorry now im not viewing on my phone I have just seen your attached picture and it is the bottle battery I was talking about What sort of mileage do you get out of that? Is it the 10ah version?

For me, as long as I can have a set up that enables me to do a 20 mile round trip with a little effort on the pedalling front it is all good. So top notch efficiency I don't feel is my top priority. Now I have seen the potential of this Xiongda 2 speed hub motor (and the price) maybe this is my best option to start with.

Efficiency translates into performance and range. A 36v 10ah battery is 360 wh. So therefore 20 miles at 18 wh/per mile will exhaust it. Hilly terrain or going fast - you spoke of trying to keep to 20mph - will use more from the battery. I don’t know how much a hub will use at that speed but it’s generally thought that crank drives use less, probably because they encourage pedalling more, but I would expect it to be higher than 18 wh/mile so you would need a bigger battery.

My pas CD bike which had the BBS01 motor never got below 20wh/mile using it fast in hilly country and set to cut out at 30 kph. Giving a range of only 17 miles with its 9ah battery. The torque sensor bike I have now will give 12 wh/mile using it at max assist going fast in the same hilly area and it cuts out at just over 17mph.

Before you buy anything it would make sense to go to somewhere where you can try a couple of e bikes out. Preferably both CD and hub drive to see which you like. If you also like to put in some effort and be rewarded with power directly, a torque sensor bike too. That will ride more like a non assisted bike than the other types. If you just want to waft home after a long day maybe not for you though.

 

[handbaked]

thanks for this explanation JohnCade, that makes more sense to me now.

d8veh - do you know how many wh per mile the xiongda has been using?

 

[D8ve]

It's not truly representative to ask what the zongda is using as peddal effort and bike setup all affect the watts per mile.
With a well setup torque sensor system you tend to get higher miles per watt. Even 8 watt per mile is possible. But a throttle powered system running at 20 mph will use 20 watts per mile easily.

Things that help efficency and hence speed and range are.
Tyres/wheels. Position and type of bike.
Put the best combo together then long fast cycling is possible.

If you do 100 watts output and add 100 watts from the bike.
This would give you around 3.5 hours drive.
A MTB with HP tyres can get 30 kph a road bike on the drops gets 10% more.
So a range of around 100 Km.
Play with the figures on this link http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/kreuzotter/espeed.htm

Remember this is Pedelec figures using an easy 100 watts from the cyclist on flat ground in no wind.
Reducing speed massively increases rang for effort. If you can hold 15 mph on your own with no input from the battery it would never run flat? So range would be infinite.
The motor assist only realy comes in up hill, into wind and on rough surfaces.

 

[handbaked]

thanks D8ve. I realise the pedal effort and efficiency of the bike have a big input. I will be building it on to a lightweight and very efficient hybrid road bike. Being a keen cyclist I realise how much difference a quality bike makes on the ride even when not assisted by a motor

Are you referring to using a 10ah 36v battery for the figures you are mentioning above?

Also just to clarify does the torque sensor simply measure how much effort you are putting in to turning the pedals whereas a PAS system simply responds when the cranks are turned no matter what effort is being put in? Does the Xiongda come with a decent torque system?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Sorry now im not viewing on my phone I have just seen your attached picture and it is the bottle battery I was talking about What sort of mileage do you get out of that? Is it the 10ah version?

For me, as long as I can have a set up that enables me to do a 20 mile round trip with a little effort on the pedalling front it is all good. So top notch efficiency I don't feel is my top priority. Now I have seen the potential of this Xiongda 2 speed hub motor (and the price) maybe this is my best option to start with.

Its 48v 11.6Ah Li-ion - about 500wh.

My rides are relatively hilly and I'm relatively heavy. My records show the lowest consumption at about 7wh/mile and the highest 21wh/mile. The 21wh/miles is on level 5 unrestricted speed, so you should be able to do 25 miles at the maximum speed and power or 71 hilly miles on level 1. Those records cover the entire 1300 miles I've done on my 48v Xiongda. If you're lighter than me and/or have flat roads, 100 miles should be achievable; however, the whole point of having an electric motor is to get some help. The more help you get, the less distance you go. Whenever anybody makes claims about the range of their bike, you have to put them into the context of speed, hills, weight and wind otherwise they're meaningless.

 

[trex]

you are very much on tthe right track. Lots of us would be very interested to read about a self build project for a super efficient e-bike for cyclist. The torque sensor simply measures how hard you push on the pedal, typically from 0-25NM on most systems. Xiongda system is a straightforward 15A controller for pedelec sensor + thumb throttle, the latter can be replaced by a bottom bracket torque sensor ($50 thereabout). Two factors decide the capacity for the battery: the desired range and the maximum continuous motor input you are considering. You can draw as much as 25A continously on 15AH battery, 15A on a 10AH battery. Most of us use 36V 15AH because it's a happy compromise, cheap, decent range, decent continuous power.

 

[handbaked]

thanks d8veh.

Do you have a torque sensor system or simple throttle?

 

[handbaked]

trex - do you have any links to torque sensors? I have had a quick look on alibaba but just finding bikes that have torque sensors on them. I'd be interested to see a link to a product(s) forum users have experience using. Torque sensor sounds like the way forward if I go for this hub motor as then it will be hands free and by the sounds of it more efficient.

I currently have a very nice custom hybrid bike but I am looking at building this onto another bike as my current one is not suitable for multiple reasons....

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Re CD efficiency: How many 250w hubs can hit 40 kph and climb a 20% without pedaling?
My last couple of rides have been well under 8 kwh per km without rider input, average speed high 20 kph including 300m of climbing, maintainable top speed on level 37~40 kph (not much truely level here).
I have never had a hub that could achieve that let alone a 250w one, it does require shifting to keep the CD spinning toward its top end.

The only 250w hub motor that I know that can do that is the 36v Xiongda, but you have to go up to 44v or 48v battery. You're kidding yourself if you think that a 250w BBS01 can get up a 20% hill without pedalling unless you reprogram the controller and have a ridiculously large first gear. I tried a standard one with standard gearing (30T rear) and it couldn't get me up our 14% test hill. I guess if you're 60kg or less, you might have a chance too, but then a hub-motor would also have a better chance. Riding the BBS01 side-by-side with a guy the same weight and level of fitness as me on a bike with a 500w BPM round our hilly 22 mile regular circuit, we both used approximately the same amount of watt-hours, which surprised me too. It's only when you do tests like that that you get a true comparison. In fact, we've tested a whole load of motors around this circuit, and there's very little difference in consumption when you ride side-by-side. Draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

thanks d8veh.

Do you have a torque sensor system or simple throttle?

My bike has a pedal sensor and throttle. I rarely use the throttle. I wouldn't bother with a torque sensor. You need the correct software in the controller to get one to work properly. It's not as simple as the harder you push, the more power you get. Normal pedal sensors are perfectly OK, especially the Xiongda one because it has a lightning fast response time to start and stop.

 

[JohnCade]

trex - do you have any links to torque sensors? I have had a quick look on alibaba but just finding bikes that have torque sensors on them. I'd be interested to see a link to a product(s) forum users have experience using. Torque sensor sounds like the way forward if I go for this hub motor as then it will be hands free and by the sounds of it more efficient.

I currently have a very nice custom hybrid bike but I am looking at building this onto another bike as my current one is not suitable for multiple reasons....

Up until recently most bikes with TS control were European. German and Austrian mainly. But there are a couple of Chinese made ones now including kits I believe. Trex will know about them. I think they may be CD rather than hub though.

There are plenty of threads here about the differences between types. d8veh is fond of the lycra versus jeans distinction. If you wear lycra on your bike you will like a TS, and if not speed sensor and hub drive. A good TS bike will multiply your input and respond instantly to your pedal pressure just like a non assisted bike. It will ride as if you have bionic legs.

 

[trex]

trex - do you have any links to torque sensors? I have had a quick look on alibaba but just finding bikes that have torque sensors on them. I'd be interested to see a link to a product(s) forum users have experience using. Torque sensor sounds like the way forward if I go for this hub motor as then it will be hands free and by the sounds of it more efficient.

I currently have a very nice custom hybrid bike but I am looking at building this onto another bike as my current one is not suitable for multiple reasons....

I've got the $50 price from another manufacturer in Shenzen last year.
I also like the look of this one, but have not tried it yet:

I know the Woosh TS bike quite well, this bike uses a motor with the torque sensor inside the motor.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sport-ts

xmax make the motor AKA the SFM with built in bottom bracket torque sensor. Member mechaniker wrote the English manual for it. Woosh may sell it in the UK (it's slightly cheaper than the BBS01). It looks very sleek but I worry about the heat generated around it may cause problem. Personally, I like simple kits that I can open and fix myself.

 

[handbaked]

I am certainly not a lycra man! I am more a casual-shoe-SPD, cargo trousers and a cycle jacket kind of man

I guess I could always go the cheaper route and use a PAS and then upgrade further down the line if I felt the need.

d8veh - is the xiongda hub 32H or 36H?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

36H

 

[handbaked]

damn, that's annoying, donor bike I am looking at getting has 32H rims, was hoping I could just get the back one remade with the new hub.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You'll need new spokes anyway because of the larger hub. You can get rims for about a tenner on Ebay, so no big deal.

 

[D8ve]

thanks D8ve. I realise the pedal effort and efficiency of the bike have a big input. I will be building it on to a lightweight and very efficient hybrid road bike. Being a keen cyclist I realise how much difference a quality bike makes on the ride even when not assisted by a motor

Are you referring to using a 10ah 36v battery for the figures you are mentioning above?

Also just to clarify does the torque sensor simply measure how much effort you are putting in to turning the pedals whereas a PAS system simply responds when the cranks are turned no matter what effort is being put in? Does the Xiongda come with a decent torque system?

Yes I went with a nominal 36v 10 amp or 360watt setup.
The good torque sensor systems measure your input and then add a % depending on the controller of between 30 and 300% of your effort. Capped by speed and max power limits. So for every 100 watt you put in the back wheel will get between 130 to 400 watts!
Low assist could mean 30 watts per hour and long assist time. high might flatten the battery in just over an hour.