Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

I don't believe the other rubbish remember? my concerns are social not economic and so far things are not going well are they?
And they are going to get far worse.
The government is in chaos, haven't you noticed?

This government ( and Corbyn) would be in turmoil with or without Brexit..
And dont forget all the current social problems,including Grenfell, are whilst in EU..our zero hours contracts, our increase in gap between rich and poor, our poor infrastructure, our NHS problems, our austerity measures, our tax havens, our Ashcrofts and Bransons ( and,Bonos) , are all whilst in EU..
I,ve not seen much to think things were changing for the better OG...just slowly getting worse...and country very stagnant ( economically) for at least 15 years...

Time for a change of tack..

 

[oldgroaner]

This government ( and Corbyn) would be in turmoil with or without Brexit..
And dont forget all the current social problems,including Grenfell, are whilst in EU..our zero hours contracts, our increase in gap between rich and poor, our poor infrastructure, our NHS problems, our austerity measures, our tax havens, our Ashcrofts and Bransons ( and,Bonos) , are all whilst in EU..
I,ve not seen much to think things were changing for the better OG...just slowly getting worse...and country very stagnant ( economically) for at least 15 years...

Time for a change of tack..

The state of the Country is due not to the actions of the EU, but those of our own shower of a Government and thieving Bankers.
That isn't going to change and since their incompetence is making a balls up of the economy while in the EU , the mind boggles at the mess they will make left entirely to their own limited intelligence outside it.
The can't even organise themselves without falling out about how we leave!
Over the edge of the precipice into a right wing breaker's yard and everything must go sale is a "Tack" in completely the wrong direction for the wrong reasons.

The likes of Jackass Grease Smug are not going to save anyone's bacon other than their own, and the rest of the Tory Mafia are no better.

In our entire History we have never had a worse and more disreputable bunch with the possible exception of the Rump parliament that Cromwell booted out.

The country is being run by a group that are a complete liability.
And you are expecting them to suddenly come to their senses and make Brexit work against the odds?
What is to stop them carrying on fighting like Rats in a sack as they are doing now?
That is just plain ludicrous!
By the bye wasn't Grenfell a result of ignoring EU directives?

 

[flecc]

Got mates I swim /dive with older than me and resting HR sub 50's..but 55 was after spells of training...but 60 at most. There will be cyclists on here well under 55 resting...( but top cyclists, marathon runners etc are between 3 and 5 times more likely to develop AFib..( but you are right..OT..)
Cardio reckons its a combination of training over years...and high blood pressure causing mine...??? Who knows..

From.wiki
"

28 beats per minute



For example, Miguel Indurain, a Spanish cyclist and five time Tour de France winner, had a resting heart rate of 28 beats per minute, one of the lowest ever recorded in a healthy human. Daniel Green achieved the world record for the slowest heartbeat in a healthy human with a heart rate of just 26 bpm in 2014."

55 is fine. When I returned to peak cycling fitness in my late 50s my resting heart rate was 48 and historically had been lower at times. Now in my 80s I still often record heart rates in the 50s.
.
.

 

[Zlatan]

55 is fine. When I returned to peak cycling fitness in my late 50s my resting heart rate was 48 and historically had been lower at times. Now in my 80s I still often record heart rates in the 50s.
.
.

That's brilliant flecc. Well done..not sure where mine will be going in future...its all over place...just as long as it keeps going !!!

 

[Zlatan]

The state of the Country is due not to the actions of the EU, but those of our own shower of a Government and thieving Bankers.
That isn't going to change and since their incompetence is making a balls up of the economy while in the EU , the mind boggles at the mess they will make left entirely to their own limited intelligence outside it.
The can't even organise themselves without falling out about how we leave!
Over the edge of the precipice into a right wing breaker's yard and everything must go sale is a "Tack" in completely the wrong direction for the wrong reasons.

The likes of Jackass Grease Smug are not going to save anyone's bacon other than their own, and the rest of the Tory Mafia are no better.

In our entire History we have never had a worse and more disreputable bunch with the possible exception of the Rump parliament that Cromwell booted out.

The country is being run by a group that are a complete liability.
And you are expecting them to suddenly come to their senses and make Brexit work against the odds?
What is to stop them carrying on fighting like Rats in a sack as they are doing now?
That is just plain ludicrous!
By the bye wasn't Grenfell a result of ignoring EU directives?

Yes , I agree , re Grenfell...but it didn't stop it either... I,m not blaming EU for anything but if you cant blame them for negative things ( or what they have not done) you cant really praise them for positive aspects...Seems to me absolutely everything is beyond control of EU...( but watching Chris Tarrant last night and the Estonian / Lithuanian deverlopments did make me think...
How much have we contributed to their infrastructure? Why haven't we seen similar here...It really was marvellous ( trains, stations etc) but why is it so much better than ours ?
It is quite contradictory. What's happening , and our help through EU should be applauded but where does that leave us ? With a deprecit railway system ? It is rather shallow of me but shouldn't charity start at home ? Or at least we should match Estonia ?
Our infrastructure needs billions spending on it.

 

[oldtom]

There is no way the EU are going to agree to this,they described it as fantasy,I think they are right.
This government are up with the fairies or is it the leprechauns,hehe.
KudosDave

Yes, somebody has been having a dream. 'On trust' and 'In good faith' are expressions alien to hard-nosed business folk so it all sounds like a smuggler's charter to me.

I have two images in my mind as a result of reading that:

1) M. et Mme.Thénardier, the innkeepers from Les Mis

and

(2) The old Jewish joke where Hymie bumps into Moishe outside the synagogue and says, 'I'm sorry to hear about that fire in your warehouse last week Moishe." Moishe says, "Ssh Hymie! It's not until next week.'

Of course, not all business people/traders are so bereft of morals as those examples but there are many who will view any such relaxation or absence of border controls/customs as opportunity.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes , I agree , re Grenfell...but it didn't stop it either... I,m not blaming EU for anything but if you cant blame them for negative things ( or what they have not done) you cant really praise them for positive aspects...Seems to me absolutely everything is beyond control of EU...( but watching Chris Tarrant last night and the Estonian / Lithuanian deverlopments did make me think...
How much have we contributed to their infrastructure? Why haven't we seen similar here...It really was marvellous ( trains, stations etc) but why is it so much better than ours ?
It is quite contradictory. What's happening , and our help through EU should be applauded but where does that leave us ? With a deprecit railway system ? It is rather shallow of me but shouldn't charity start at home ? Or at least we should match Estonia ?
Our infrastructure needs billions spending on it.

And are you expecting the Tory Government to spend millions on infrastructure they have sold off to Foreigners already?
By what logic?
When they wouldn't spend the money when it belonged to us?
We don't own the Railway system by the way, didn't you know?

 

[oldgroaner]

The state of the Country is due not to the actions of the EU, but those of our own shower of a Government and thieving Bankers.
That isn't going to change and since their incompetence is making a balls up of the economy while in the EU , the mind boggles at the mess they will make left entirely to their own limited intelligence outside it.
The can't even organise themselves without falling out about how we leave!
Over the edge of the precipice into a right wing breaker's yard and everything must go sale is a "Tack" in completely the wrong direction for the wrong reasons.

The likes of Jackass Grease Smug are not going to save anyone's bacon other than their own, and the rest of the Tory Mafia are no better.

In our entire History we have never had a worse and more disreputable bunch with the possible exception of the Rump parliament that Cromwell booted out.

The country is being run by a group that are a complete liability.
And you are expecting them to suddenly come to their senses and make Brexit work against the odds?
What is to stop them carrying on fighting like Rats in a sack as they are doing now?
That is just plain ludicrous!
By the bye wasn't Grenfell a result of ignoring EU directives?

I note peterL denies the Government is responsible.. Fascinating!

 

[Zlatan]

And are you expecting the Tory Government to spend millions on infrastructure they have sold off to Foreigners already?
By what logic?
When they wouldn't spend the money when it belonged to us?
We don't own the Railway system by the way, didn't you know?

No , I,m not..think we need another government ( and not Corbyn) and out of EU.
You mix up government issues and Brexit ones. EU has no control at all over limiting, directing or even cajoling governments. Get out of EU and then get a government we want.
All the things you and Tom criticise would be unchanged even if we remain.

 

[oldgroaner]

This from the Daily Mirror
"
A report by technology magazine Wired revealed hundreds of tweets from 29 Russian troll accounts - which had hundreds of thousands of followers - using hashtags linked to the Brexit campaign to spread mainly pro-Leave messages.

One of the leading accounts, called @southlonestar, tweeted racist messages after the Westminster Bridge terror attack in March and live-tweeted the Manchester Arena bombing in May.

One infamous tweet, which included an image of a Muslim woman apparently “ignoring” victims of the Westminster attack as she walked across Westminster Bridge, was shared thousands of times and picked up by far-right activists in both the UK and US.

A further study by academics at London’s City University, found 13,000 Twitter ‘bots’ spewing out pro-Brexit messages in the run-up to the vote."

How interesting.

 

[oldgroaner]

No , I,m not..think we need another government ( and not Corbyn) and out of EU.
You mix up government issues and Brexit ones. EU has no control at all over limiting, directing or even cajoling governments. Get out of EU and then get a government we want.

No Zlatan it is you that is confused over the Role of the EU, as you protest at one and the same time it is too powerful, and yet not powerful enough to prevent abuses, and none of the things going wrong in this country come under EU control, for the simple reason our Government either ignores or Vetoes any EU intitiative to prevent abuses, or as is the case of Brexit, runs off before it can be prosecuted for money laundering.
And by the way the EU works by concensus with the Governments of the member states, it does not Cajole, bully or force them does it? nor take over their sovereignty.
But it can "Do" them when they break laws they have signed up and accepted, which is why we have this Brexit Shambles.

 

[PeterL]

I note peterL denies the Government is responsible.. Fascinating!

Not too sure what you mean by that, but, the HOP is not just the current government of course and in many ways they all have a responsibility to manage the country to the betterment of the rest of us. Fine,there should be opposition, checks and balances but, to blindly object to everything without any sign of thought seems totally alien to me. Well, perhaps not, I see it on here every day, all day.

 

[Zlatan]

No Zlatan it is you that is confused over the Role of the EU, as you protest at one and the same time it is too powerful, and yet not powerful enough to prevent abuses, and none of the things going wrong in this country come under EU control, for the simple reason our Government either ignores or Vetoes any EU intitiative to prevent abuses, or as is the case of Brexit, runs off before it can be prosecuted for money laundering.
And by the way the EU works by concensus with the Governments of the member states, it does not Cajole, bully or force them does it? nor take over their sovereignty.

No it does none of them OG...thats my point exactly. You criticise , rightly, many aspects of our government but then credit EU for imposing some kind of limit. Had some limit been imposed you really think we,d have zero hours contracts etc etc. I think its you wanting it both ways.
Tell me this, assume we stay in EU with this government where do you see any changes. I see none. We ,d keep such as Ashley, Ashroft , zero hours contracts, .
Why should anything change within EU after all Tories wanted to remain and this situation you and Tom despise developed under noses of EU whilst we were in it. I just dont understand your faith in EU..

 

[PeterL]

This from the Daily Mirror
"
A report by technology magazine Wired revealed hundreds of tweets from 29 Russian troll accounts - which had hundreds of thousands of followers - using hashtags linked to the Brexit campaign to spread mainly pro-Leave messages.

One of the leading accounts, called @southlonestar, tweeted racist messages after the Westminster Bridge terror attack in March and live-tweeted the Manchester Arena bombing in May.

One infamous tweet, which included an image of a Muslim woman apparently “ignoring” victims of the Westminster attack as she walked across Westminster Bridge, was shared thousands of times and picked up by far-right activists in both the UK and US.

A further study by academics at London’s City University, found 13,000 Twitter ‘bots’ spewing out pro-Brexit messages in the run-up to the vote."

How interesting.

Not especially to me it's not (interesting). I take you are still on your 'we know better than you' because we're smarter line?

 

[oldgroaner]

Not too sure what you mean by that, but, the HOP is not just the current government of course and in many ways they all have a responsibility to manage the country to the betterment of the rest of us. Fine,there should be opposition, checks and balances but, to blindly object to everything without any sign of thought seems totally alien to me. Well, perhaps not, I see it on here every day, all day.

Then stop doing it!
What thought would you like to see? suggestions were made long ago on here to improve things, but whenever they appear Conservatives defend the status Quo.
They are the ones that blindly object to change, yet at the same time support change for the worse.

 

[Zlatan]

Then stop doing it!
What thought would you like to see? suggestions were made long ago on here to improve things, but whenever they appear Conservatives defend the status Quo.
They are the ones that blindly object to change, yet at the same time support change for the worse.

And remain would be just more of same...Its leavers insisting on change.

 

[oldgroaner]

Not especially to me it's not (interesting). I take you are still on your 'we know better than you' because we're smarter line?

What on earth made you leap to that conclusion, I made no such assertion merely reported the article, which was interesting.

I neither stated I agreed or disagreed, despite that you jumped to a conclusion based on personal prejudice not facts.

Getting overly defensive again over anything that could place the Brexit vote under any suspicion aren't you?

Talk about wearing Blinkers.

 

[oldgroaner]

And remain would be just more of same...Its leavers insisting on change.

And do you really believe the leavers will get the sort of change they want?

 

[PeterL]

Then stop doing it!
What thought would you like to see? suggestions were made long ago on here to improve things, but whenever they appear Conservatives defend the status Quo.
They are the ones that blindly object to change, yet at the same time support change for the worse.

What on earth are you talking about - give me a clue, or even a quote that I can follow. All comes across as rambling nonsense at the moment.

 

[PeterL]

What on earth made you leap to that conclusion, I made no such assertion merely reported the article, which was interesting.

I neither stated I agreed or disagreed, despite that you jumped to a conclusion based on personal prejudice not facts.

Getting overly defensive again over anything that could place the Brexit vote under any suspicion aren't you?

Talk about wearing Blinkers.

Yet more rubbish - you said it was interesting, I didn't think it was.