Brexit, for once some facts.

Kudoscycles

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Superb analysis from Hannan - NO DEAL it is!



No deal is now the only option left - and we must respond by liberalising our economy

Reforms won't be easy, but attitudes change when people feel they are being bullied

There won’t be a deal. The EU has overplayed its hand.
Clocking the defeatism of Britain’s negotiators, its representatives made deliberately harsh and vindictive demands: a lengthy period of non-voting membership, the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland and continuing EU control of Britain’s trade and tariffs. But the United Kingdom, thank God, is a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs are not about to accept the sort of terms that a victorious power dictates to a defeated adversary.

What will happen when, as seems certain, the Withdrawal Agreement is rejected? Some talk of a Norwegian-style association, others of a second referendum, but it is hard to see either thing happening. I favoured EFTA membership from the start. Had we pursued that option after the vote, we’d have spared ourselves a great deal of trouble. We’d have recovered our trade policy, left the common agricultural and fisheries policies and pulled out of most non-economic aspects of membership. Sadly, though, we have left it too late. What is now being mooted is not a Norway-style arrangement, but Norway plus the backstop (the very thing that makes the current deal unacceptable) and, incredibly, plus the customs union, which would mean that, unlike other EFTA countries, we’d be forbidden to strike trade deals.

As for a People’s Vote (what an obnoxious name, by the way – what was the last one, an aardvarks’ vote?) even if a majority could be mustered for it in the House of Commons, there is no mechanism to turn that majority into a referendum without the collaboration of the executive. Since this government has set its face against a second referendum, there would need to be a snap dissolution, which would require the support of two thirds of MPs. Good luck with that.

Instead of fantasising about what we might ideally have wanted, let’s focus on what’s on the table. It’s possible to imagine a slimmed-down version of the current text squeaking through. A UK government – presumably led by a different PM – might go back to Brussels following a parliamentary rejection of the agreement and seek to salvage its most uncontentious aspects, such as reciprocal rights for each other’s citizens.


Almost all the objections to the 585-page Withdrawal Agreement, after all, are focused on the 175 pages pertaining to the backstop. It is that part that no self-respecting nation could accept – not least because, unlike EU membership itself, it contains no exit clause. The other 410 pages are far from perfect – they give the European Court of Justice excessive control, and no one thinks that Britain really owes Brussels £39 billion – but both sides should be able to live with them.

Will EU leaders frustrate a managed withdrawal for the sake of a backstop that London, Dublin and Brussels all say they never want to see activated anyway? It’s hard to say. Many of the 27 governments, mindful of their own prosperity, would want to respond to an impasse by extending the current technical arrangements pending further talks. But some Eurocrats would rather see everyone suffer than watch a post-EU Britain succeed.

So we need to prepare for the prospect of a disorderly Brexit. There would be costs for both sides. The euro crisis might flare up again, and the states nearest to Britain would take a hit. But there would be also be a heavy blow to the UK, which conducts a higher proportion of its trade across the Channel than anyone else.

How might we soften that blow? Our preparations are in a better place than they were before the summer. The lights won’t fail in Northern Ireland. Planes won’t be denied landing slots. It’s true that, to the frustration of some ministers, the Treasury has refused to invest in new customs infrastructure. Then again, why should Britain want additional customs checks? The obvious response to a no-deal Brexit is to remove all our trade barriers.

That was what turned Singapore from a poor, equatorial island into a gleaming metropolis. Singaporeans went from having half our income per head in the 1950s to nearly twice today. Why? Because in 1965, they responded to an acrimonious split with a larger neighbour (Malaysia) by slashing taxes, creating enterprise zones and opening their economy to the world.

Such things are not easily done in a democracy. But attitudes change when people feel they are being bullied. And, make no mistake, if the EU refused to agree with Britain even the minimal courtesies that democracies take for granted with their neighbours, people would conclude that Britain was, in effect, being blockaded. In such a climate, voters would accept reforms that, in more tranquil times, they might see as too much bother.


What reforms? After unilateral free trade, the most important would be tax cuts to stimulate growth and attract investment. Corporation tax should be reduced to the OECD minimum of ten per cent, and other taxes that impair economic activity, such as fuel duty, scrapped.

Where would the money come from? Apart from the extra £39 billion that would be immediately freed up, we could drop HS2 and privatise more government assets, including land owned by the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.

We should repeal anti-competitive EU regulations: the Temporary Workers Directive, the rules on art sales, the GM ban, the internet restrictions – including GDPR. We should ease planning restrictions. We should also (and this won’t be popular) ensure that the City retains its global re-eminence, abolishing the EU’s MiFID rules on transparency across financial markets, removing bonus caps, giving the FCA the explicit remit of increasing competitiveness. The Bank of England, similarly, should replace its inflation target with a growth target – an apparently minor reform that is critical if we need an emergency boost.

But here’s the thing. We should have already embarked on these changes in anticipation of a possible breakdown. Instead, we are spending more and regulating more. EU negotiators have concluded that Theresa May has no interest in economic liberalisation. That has been the problem from the start.
Tommie .....you really should Google ‘Singapore,CPF-Central Provident Fund’ to see what JRM and IDS have intended for the normal working bloke in the U.K.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Superb analysis from Hannan - NO DEAL it is!



No deal is now the only option left - and we must respond by liberalising our economy

Reforms won't be easy, but attitudes change when people feel they are being bullied

There won’t be a deal. The EU has overplayed its hand.
Clocking the defeatism of Britain’s negotiators, its representatives made deliberately harsh and vindictive demands: a lengthy period of non-voting membership, the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland and continuing EU control of Britain’s trade and tariffs. But the United Kingdom, thank God, is a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs are not about to accept the sort of terms that a victorious power dictates to a defeated adversary.

What will happen when, as seems certain, the Withdrawal Agreement is rejected? Some talk of a Norwegian-style association, others of a second referendum, but it is hard to see either thing happening. I favoured EFTA membership from the start. Had we pursued that option after the vote, we’d have spared ourselves a great deal of trouble. We’d have recovered our trade policy, left the common agricultural and fisheries policies and pulled out of most non-economic aspects of membership. Sadly, though, we have left it too late. What is now being mooted is not a Norway-style arrangement, but Norway plus the backstop (the very thing that makes the current deal unacceptable) and, incredibly, plus the customs union, which would mean that, unlike other EFTA countries, we’d be forbidden to strike trade deals.

As for a People’s Vote (what an obnoxious name, by the way – what was the last one, an aardvarks’ vote?) even if a majority could be mustered for it in the House of Commons, there is no mechanism to turn that majority into a referendum without the collaboration of the executive. Since this government has set its face against a second referendum, there would need to be a snap dissolution, which would require the support of two thirds of MPs. Good luck with that.

Instead of fantasising about what we might ideally have wanted, let’s focus on what’s on the table. It’s possible to imagine a slimmed-down version of the current text squeaking through. A UK government – presumably led by a different PM – might go back to Brussels following a parliamentary rejection of the agreement and seek to salvage its most uncontentious aspects, such as reciprocal rights for each other’s citizens.


Almost all the objections to the 585-page Withdrawal Agreement, after all, are focused on the 175 pages pertaining to the backstop. It is that part that no self-respecting nation could accept – not least because, unlike EU membership itself, it contains no exit clause. The other 410 pages are far from perfect – they give the European Court of Justice excessive control, and no one thinks that Britain really owes Brussels £39 billion – but both sides should be able to live with them.

Will EU leaders frustrate a managed withdrawal for the sake of a backstop that London, Dublin and Brussels all say they never want to see activated anyway? It’s hard to say. Many of the 27 governments, mindful of their own prosperity, would want to respond to an impasse by extending the current technical arrangements pending further talks. But some Eurocrats would rather see everyone suffer than watch a post-EU Britain succeed.

So we need to prepare for the prospect of a disorderly Brexit. There would be costs for both sides. The euro crisis might flare up again, and the states nearest to Britain would take a hit. But there would be also be a heavy blow to the UK, which conducts a higher proportion of its trade across the Channel than anyone else.

How might we soften that blow? Our preparations are in a better place than they were before the summer. The lights won’t fail in Northern Ireland. Planes won’t be denied landing slots. It’s true that, to the frustration of some ministers, the Treasury has refused to invest in new customs infrastructure. Then again, why should Britain want additional customs checks? The obvious response to a no-deal Brexit is to remove all our trade barriers.

That was what turned Singapore from a poor, equatorial island into a gleaming metropolis. Singaporeans went from having half our income per head in the 1950s to nearly twice today. Why? Because in 1965, they responded to an acrimonious split with a larger neighbour (Malaysia) by slashing taxes, creating enterprise zones and opening their economy to the world.

Such things are not easily done in a democracy. But attitudes change when people feel they are being bullied. And, make no mistake, if the EU refused to agree with Britain even the minimal courtesies that democracies take for granted with their neighbours, people would conclude that Britain was, in effect, being blockaded. In such a climate, voters would accept reforms that, in more tranquil times, they might see as too much bother.


What reforms? After unilateral free trade, the most important would be tax cuts to stimulate growth and attract investment. Corporation tax should be reduced to the OECD minimum of ten per cent, and other taxes that impair economic activity, such as fuel duty, scrapped.

Where would the money come from? Apart from the extra £39 billion that would be immediately freed up, we could drop HS2 and privatise more government assets, including land owned by the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.

We should repeal anti-competitive EU regulations: the Temporary Workers Directive, the rules on art sales, the GM ban, the internet restrictions – including GDPR. We should ease planning restrictions. We should also (and this won’t be popular) ensure that the City retains its global re-eminence, abolishing the EU’s MiFID rules on transparency across financial markets, removing bonus caps, giving the FCA the explicit remit of increasing competitiveness. The Bank of England, similarly, should replace its inflation target with a growth target – an apparently minor reform that is critical if we need an emergency boost.

But here’s the thing. We should have already embarked on these changes in anticipation of a possible breakdown. Instead, we are spending more and regulating more. EU negotiators have concluded that Theresa May has no interest in economic liberalisation. That has been the problem from the start.
Congratulations tommie on finding someone who has even less idea than you have about reality.
And that's a notable achievement.
 
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oldgroaner

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Speech that tommies favourite idiot politician gave in America that spells out what he plans for the UK
Here's Daniel Hannan giving the toast at the 'Atlas Networks Freedom Dinner' last year....gives you a glimpse of what they have in store for the unwary 'poor' who voted for Brexit.....
https://twitter.com/i/status/1068855490577338368

And he is wrong historically in his references to Chicken , which only came into regular consumption in this country after Meat rationing ended and the demand rose that couldn't be satisfied with enough supplies of red meats
It wasn't a triumph for Capitalism, just a pragmatic answer to the problem of increasing demand for meat that could be locally raised quickly.
Like all the other charlatans that support Brexit, he wants to exploit the public, and reduce their rights and welfare to fill his own pockets.
Quite simply he is an enemy of the public, disguising himself with words intended to fool the slower thinking members of society.
 
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flecc

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And he is wrong historically in his references to Chicken , which only came into regular consumption in this country after Meat rationing ended and the demand rose that couldn't be satisfied with enough supplies of red meats
Indeed, I'm old enough to remember when chicken was a luxury meat that the majority rarely ate. For them chicken was often only enjoyed as the basis of the Christmas day dinner before turkey was popularised for the British masses.
.
 
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Zlatan

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Notice the bigots are out in force this morning with their normal Troll insults when somebody posts an opposing opinion.
There are numerous economists saying same as in Tommie's info. Fine, by all means disagree with it but the put downs and insults merely point out the level of bigotry now common on here..
To my mind we have reached an end. Its either accept May, s deal or remain. The fallout, moaning, recrimination and division for anything else would damage us even further.
Can you imagine OG's level of posting if we had a no deal..He, d swamp entire Web.
We will look back on all this as a missed opportunity when we are back under control of Junker, paying God knows how much, accepting ever more pointless ineffective directives and watching the demise of sterling, which will simply be another casualty of remaining.
Think I, ll move to Luxembourg and get citizenship there. Junkers knows how to look after his own... They, ll appreciate a Jamaican there with a British Red passport.(sorry an EU passport obviously) Mind, not much charter work in Luxembourg.. BVI it is then... Some easy offshore tax havens there...

I like how Tom and OG can have such extreme polar opposite views and not even realise it. It's brilliant.
OG calls all folk with more than £100 quid invested somewhere "leaving charlatans". Tom agrees with him and then champions Labour. FFS Tom have a read of Corbyn's stance and view about EU. He wants to leave more than anyone but Tom has his head so far up his arse he can ignore the little irony.. OG can just carry on regurgitating the same BS about how leavers want to take advantage but fails to see stupidity in his point when true socialists want to do same.(I don't like JC's policies but I do think he is a true socialist... Just a too extreme one)
The pair of you please explain how you can insult Tommie, myself Peter, (now left) Fingers, Tillson or anyone else with remotest inclination towards leaving but won't explain or criticise our chief socialist comrade Corbyn.. Its just so ironic and hypocritical.
All the questions you both insist have never been answered (which they have, repeatedly,) you should direct towards Labour hierarchy instead of aiming your vitriol at folk on here.
 
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oldgroaner

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Notice the bigots are out in force this morning with their normal Troll insults when somebody posts an opposing opinion.
There are numerous economists saying same as in Tommie's info. Fine, by all means disagree with it but the put downs and insults merely point out the level of bigotry now common on here..
To my mind we have reached an end. Its either accept May, s deal or remain. The fallout, moaning, recrimination and division for anything else would damage us even further.
Can you imagine OG's level of posting if we had a no deal..He, d swamp entire Web.
We will look back on all this as a missed opportunity when we are back under control of Junker, paying God knows how much, accepting ever more pointless ineffective directives and watching the demise of sterling, which will simply be another casualty of remaining.
Think I, ll move to Luxembourg and get citizenship there. Junkers knows how to look after his own... They, ll appreciate a Jamaican there with a British Red passport.(sorry an EU passport obviously) Mind, not much charter work in Luxembourg.. BVI it is then... Some easy offshore tax havens there...

I like how Tom and OG can have such extreme polar opposite views and not even realise it. It's brilliant.
OG calls all folk with more than £100 quid invested somewhere leaving charlatans, Tom agrees with him and then champions Labour. FFS Tom have a read of Corbyn's stance and view about EU. He wants to leave more than anyone but Tom has his head so far up his arse he can ignore the little irony.. OG can just carry on regurgitating the same BS about how leavers want to take advantage but fails to see stupidity in his point when true socialists want to do same.(I don't like JC's policies but I do think he is a true socialist... Just a too extreme one)
The pair of you please explain how you can insult Tommie, myself Peter, (now left) Fingers, Tillson or anyone else with remotest inclination towards leaving but won't explain or criticise our chief socialist comrade Corbyn.. Its just so ironic and hypocritical.
All the questions you both insist have never been answered (which they have, repeatedly,) you should direct towards Labour hierarchy instead of aiming your vitriol at folk on here.
Corbyn is no friend of mine, as to insulting you, I simply tell the truth about what you are, and others too where appropriate
When are you going to post on topic?
You have been repeatedly asked to advance a pragmatic argument in favour of leave and never do, as there isn't one.
Commenting critically on the Labour hierarchy is just another of your strange obsessions, and of no interest to me.
 
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Zlatan

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Corbyn is no friend of mine, as to insulting you, I simply tell the truth about what you are, and others too where appropriate
When are you going to post on topic?
You wouldn't know the truth if you stood in it.
And of course your insults are true.. just as mine are. You pillock.
And of course saying Corbyn is no friend of yours explains away the irony that he just happens to be a socialist who wants out of EU. According to you that is mutually exclusive. (get a dictionary for that one, a Ladybird one should do,with nice big words and letters)
And neither of you bother to answer the question. Perhaps you don't understand the concept. It has nothing at all to do with supporting Labour or who you support..
The pair of you continually insult leavers with accusations simply impossible, impossible to be in the nature of Corbyn. Yet you persist but can't explain your reasoning or refuse to.
I, ll ask again.
How can Brexit be purely for ruling class to exploit working class when the chief champion of working class also wants to leave. ?
Either of you can answer.
 
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Danidl

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Walking across town yesterday I did some informal statistics on people with yellow high vis jackets behind their windscreen and was surprised by the number of Mercedes Benz. Worrying about MPG and the cost of fuel isn't something you associate with buyers of Mercedes... Voting for Marine Le Pen is...

Lots of big cars, isn't this supposed to be a grass roots movement by the "little people", the ones who have been left behind, the just about managing? Of course these people may have their high vis jacket behind the windscreen in order to get through the road blocks more easily... And the "little people" often get in debt in order to buy cars that are beyond their means eating pasta and spuds at every meal so they can pay the monthly instalments.

What is very tiring in France is that everyone is always against change, it is very hard to find someone who is for change and progress. This is part of the charming je ne sais quoi I guess but it does get a little boring after a while.
.. hi Kiwi, I take this a a slight dig rather than serious comment.. as you are aware, there is a requirement in French traffic law for a hi Vis jacket to be available to the driver should they need to leave the car on an autoroute.So most people wrap them around the passenger seat,so if stopped the police will see it and not inquire.
 
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flecc

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All the questions you both insist have never been answered (which they have, repeatedly,) you should direct towards Labour hierarchy instead of aiming your vitriol at folk on here.
You have the weirdest illogicallity Zlatan.

The unanswered questions were addressed to all those who voted leave.

Why should they specifically be addressed to the Labour party? They are after all a mixed bag of Leavers and Remainers like the Tories.

I'll answer that question for you, it's because you cannot post anything without ranting phobically against Labour, Corbyn or the EU.

In doing that Zlatan you repeatedly show yourself to be the very definition of a bigot. To you, everything wrong is the fault of one or other of those three you hate.
.
 
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Zlatan

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You have the weirdest illogicallity Zlatan.

The unanswered questions were addressed to all those who voted leave.

Why should they specifically be addressed to the Labour party? They are after all a mixed bag of Leavers and Remainers like the Tories.

I'll answer that question for you, it's because you cannot post anything without ranting phobically against Labour, Corbyn or the EU.

In doing that Zlatan you repeatedly show yourself to be the very definition of a bigot. To you, everything wrong is the fault of one or other of those three you hate.
.
That is simply not true. I,ve said on numerous occasions Corbyn is both a socialist and sincere man, I do not support his policies but that's completely different. I was not even criticising Corbyn's stance. I was criticising OG and Tom for consistently levelling characteristics at leavers Corbyn plainly does not hold but does believe in leaving the EU.
Perhaps you need to look up exactly what the word bigot means, borrow OG's dictionary
I notice neither of them has answered the question, but then again neither have you.
Levelling a further accusation at me explains nothing about OG and Tom's insults aimed at leavers, insults I, m
actually holding Corbyn up in high regard to dismiss. How on earth is that a phobic insult of Corbyn. Its the reverse.
Corbyn could and should have been in no. 10 by now.
By the way flec. Its spelt illogicality. It does not contain 2 double "L" s.

I find your stance very odd flecc. Tom comes on and calls folk Trolls and w4nkers and you defend him. Very odd.
 
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oldgroaner

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You wouldn't know the truth if you stood in it.
And of course your insults are true.. just as mine are. You pillock.
And of course saying Corbyn is no friend of yours explains away the irony that he just happens to be a socialist who wants out of EU. According to you that is mutually exclusive. (get a dictionary for that one, a Ladybird one should do,with nice big words and letters)
And neither of you bother to answer the question. Perhaps you don't understand the concept. It has nothing at all to do with supporting Labour or who you support..
The pair of you continually insult leavers with accusations simply impossible, impossible to be in the nature of Corbyn. Yet you persist but can't explain your reasoning or refuse to.
I, ll ask again.
How can Brexit be purely for ruling class to exploit working class when the chief champion of working class also wants to leave. ?
Either of you can answer.
You want an answer? here you are then
Corbyn is not representing the best interests in the people because he has an inaccurate view of both the problem we face and the solution to it, his notion of socialism is based on a parochial and ineffective approach that will undermine the future of the country to satisfy his personal ambition which while no doubt well intended, will not be able to withstand the circumstances of not merely available finance, but infrastructure and resources too.
As to the so called leave politicians they deserve no better than to be described as a danger to society determined on staging a coup.
 

Zlatan

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You want an answer? here you are then
Corbyn is not representing the best interests in the people because he has an inaccurate view of both the problem we face and the solution to it, his notion of socialism is based on a parochial and ineffective approach that will undermine the future of the country to satisfy his personal ambition which while no doubt well intended, will not be able to withstand the circumstances of not merely available finance, but infrastructure and resources too.
As to the so called leave politicians they deserve no better than to be described as a danger to society determined on staging a coup.
That does not answer the question posed, at all. It explains or attempts to explain, Corbyn's reasoning. It does not start to explain how yourself and Tom can level the accusations you do against leavers (ie taking advantage of working class blah blah fecking blah) but failing to accept
Corbyn supports those people And leave. Stop pretending to be thick OG. You know very well the irony in your thinking.
 
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flecc

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That is simply not true. I,ve said on numerous occasions Corbyn is both a socialist and sincere man, I do not support his policies but that's completely different. I was not even criticising Corbyn's stance. I was criticising OG and Tom for consistently levelling characteristics at leavers Corbyn plainly does not hold but does believe in leaving the EU.
Perhaps you need to look up exactly what the word bigot means, borrow OG's dictionary
I notice neither of them has answered the question, but then again neither have you.
Levelling a further accusation at me explains nothing about OG and Tom's insults aimed at leavers, insults I, m
actually holding Corbyn up in high regard to dismiss. How on earth is that a phobic insult of Corbyn. Its the reverse.
Corbyn could and should have been in no. 10 by now.
By the way flec. Its spelt illogicality. It does not contain 2 double "L" s.

I find your stance very odd flecc. Tom comes on and calls folk Trolls and w4nkers and you defend him. Very odd.
No, I didn't defend Tom or OG, I challenged your position.

Saying Corbyn is a sincere socialist doesn't excuse the way you rant about him in numerous posts where he is not relevant, especially since you hate socialism.

And Tom and OG levelling questions at leavers that Corbyn has a different position on isn't relevant so your question isn't valid. As I posted but you fail to understand, the questions are as stated, for Leavers, any Leavers, to answer. If Corbyn is a leaver but doesn't agree with other leavers or Remainers, that merely illustrates how confused the Leave movement is.

We Remainers are not in any way confused. We all want the same thing, to remain in the EU.

And we all want that for the same two reasons, that all aspects of our lives have been much better under the EU than in the years before, and that leaving the world's largest single market for a hope that we'll do better in a very tough world outside is madness.
.
 
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flecc

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That does not answer the question posed, at all. It explains or attempts to explain, Corbyn's reasoning. It does not start to explain how yourself and Tom can level the accusations you do against leavers (ie taking advantage of working class blah blah fecking blah) but failing to accept
Corbyn supports those people And leave. Stop pretending to be thick OG. You know very well the irony in your thinking.
You are the thick one, your question is not valid as I keep explaining. Corbyn is completely irrelevant to the questions to Leavers that Tom, OG or I have posed. Corbyn's position is F.A. to do with the questions posed to any Leavers.

We just want any Leavers to answer them instead of chanting mantras about sovereignty, control and borders.
.
 
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oldgroaner

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That does not answer the question posed, at all. It explains or attempts to explain, Corbyn's reasoning. It does not start to explain how yourself and Tom can level the accusations you do against leavers (ie taking advantage of working class blah blah fecking blah) but failing to accept
Corbyn supports those people And leave. Stop pretending to be thick OG. You know very well the irony in your thinking.
Zlatan you are not making any sense .
If you couldn't see that the intentions of the leave Politicians were against the interests of the Public, at the time of the referendum, than you can get away with being called misguided, but to stick to that and defend it after all the trouble caused, and the many facts revealed, marks you as lacking intelligence
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Zlatan you are not making any sense .
If you couldn't see that the intentions of the leave Politicians were against the interests of the Public, at the time of the referendum, than you can get away with being called misguided, but to stick to that and defend it after all the trouble caused, and the many facts revealed, marks you as lacking intelligence
All probably true but as I keep trying to tell you all each accusation can equally be levelled at Corbyn (and a good few others)
BTW flecc.
I did not accuse anyone of being thick. I told OG to stop pretending to be so, implying the reverse. But when you are looking for fault you can always find it.
 

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