Brexit, for once some facts.

[vfr400]

stumbled on this piece

If the polls are anything to go by, far-right parties will do well from Finland to Italy. Fascism is not only a mainstream ideology again in Europe; the presence of fascists in government is now a banal fact of life across the continent.

You're believing what you read in the crooked press. These guys that you're calling far right are actually just normal people like you and me. They support free-speech and democracy. It's not fascism when you express your opinion on something.

Let's say someone expressed their opinion by saying that there are too many immigrants in UK today. That's not racism, neither is it right wing or fascism. It's just an opinion, and what's more, it's quite a popular opinion.

I have the opinion that our politicians no longer represent the people that elected them to office. I also believe that the mainstream media has deteriorated into a propaganda machine. Am I therefore a communist, fascist, conservative, liberal or what? I like to think of myself as apolitical and normal. It just happens that I have some opinions based on evidence that presents itself to me. I'm not in any society or party and my thoughts are not influenced by any financial matters. There are many more people like me that think the same. This will be reflected in the European elections, and it's also being reflected in politics across the rest of the democratic world (mainly the west).

 

[Wicky]

After Farage / Trump et al maybe pretend politicians are what folk vote for when bored with usual lot.

Ukraine election: What a TV box set may tell us about the future

Confused? Well the blurring of fiction and fact doesn't seem to bother Ukrainians, in fact it appears to have brought clarity. All the polls suggest that Zelensky - a 41-year-old Monty Python fan - is going to defeat the incumbent, Petro Poroshenko, and easily win Sunday's presidential election run-off.

Zelensky has effectively run an "anti-campaign". He's avoided political rallies and speeches, and instead continued performing slapstick routines with his comedy group. There's been very little in the way of policy or ideas, apart from a promise to be new and different. Serious interviews have been few and far between, and there haven't been many press conferences either.

If only...

 

[Woosh]

I'm a remainer, but to remain is now undemocratic. Anybody that has any understanding of how democracy works and how important it is needs to think very careful about these things. This is what Brexit has exposed. It's basically a fight between democracy and fascists. The fascists are not the guys that the press would have you believe. Instead, they're the ones that don't support free speech, human rights and the democratic process.

I think democracy needs to be applied with great care. More and more examples show that idea of moving power from the centre to the people, albeit looks good in principle, does not work well and often abused by small groups with interest in singe issues. I give you the Common Fisheries policy. If you leave it (the CFP) to fishermen, their interests do not coincide with the interests of our future generations, not only for this country but for the whole world. Following the same reasoning, the brexit debate has consequence not only for England and Wales that voted for it, but also or the EU, NATO and the world at large.
When the debate has sufficiently evolved, it is good to look back at the consequences and implications for our future generations.
If our elected politicians cannot agree on the positive of the project, the idea of a second and the third, and maybe fourth brexit referendum is thus democratic and legitimate.

 

[Wicky]

I have some opinions based on evidence that presents itself to me.

I was like that at school at an impressionable age of 13 or 14 drawn to the fanciful oh so believable books by Erich von Daniken - so in history lessons I could impress the teacher telling her it was the space aliens that really built the pyramids.

Thankfully she showed remarkable patience with me while I went through that difficult stage ;-) Funnily enough there's money to be made from modern mediums WooTube CT and imaginative entertainment....

 

[Zlatan]

I was like that at school at an impressionable age of 13 or 14 drawn to the fanciful oh so believable books by Erich von Daniken - so in history lessons I could impress the teacher telling her it was the space aliens that really built the pyramids.

Thankfully she showed remarkable patience with me while I went through that difficult stage ;-) Funnily enough there's money to be made from modern mediums WooTube CT and imaginative entertainment....

I agree with your reasoning but you cant write off every conspiracy theory.
I remenber my grandad insisting men hadnt been to moon and that it had all been filmed in some studio, he was a lone voice at time and I put it down to his age. Read the evidence about that now and its not far fetched, not saying its case, but there is evidence for it. (and some of things Van Danikwn said)
Was JFK killed by a lone marksman? I doubt it. Yes, there is often smoke without fire but some things are lies that we generally accept as truth.
Was Blair involved in Dr Kelly "suicide"? We will probably never know. It does us all good to challenge accepted truth... Watergate? Birmingham 6?Bloody Sunday?
Its getting to point nowadays where I accept nothing without proof. We are lied to continually probably always have been but its getting harder to pull wool over our eyes, not easier.
Remember Blair and his WMD justification for war. I fell hook line and sinker for that... He was (is) so credible.

 

[Danidl]

https://mol.im/a/6939417

Remainers, dont read it. You, ll be digitless..

I have always considered the concept of stamping the person who has voted, with a indelible ink as a brilliant anti fraud technique. It would also remove the requirement for narrow constituencies. One vote per person. .. But having read this, perhaps a stamp on the forehead would be better.

 

[Woosh]

You're believing what you read in the crooked press. These guys that you're calling far right are actually just normal people like you and me. They support free-speech and democracy. It's not fascism when you express your opinion on something.

Let's say someone expressed their opinion by saying that there are too many immigrants in UK today. That's not racism, neither is it right wing or fascism. It's just an opinion, and what's more, it's quite a popular opinion.

I have the opinion that our politicians no longer represent the people that elected them to office. I also believe that the mainstream media has deteriorated into a propaganda machine. Am I therefore a communist, fascist, conservative, liberal or what? I like to think of myself as apolitical and normal. It just happens that I have some opinions based on evidence that presents itself to me. I'm not in any society or party and my thoughts are not influenced by any financial matters. There are many more people like me that think the same. This will be reflected in the European elections, and it's also being reflected in politics across the rest of the democratic world (mainly the west).

one moment, you call the press I read crooked, then immediately after that, those recognised by most people as 'far right' are paragon of free speech and democracy. Why don't you add to it that I am an idiot for believing the wrong press and the far right is perfectly reasonable, intelligent, discerning, law abiding citizens?
If, as you said, that our politicians no longer represent the people that elected them to office, then I assume you wouldn't have voted for them, and is it a surprise that they don't represent your view?

Quite often, I hear the argument that if there is another referendum on brexit (I don't support referenda, I much prefer informed debates through specialist bodies), that would be anti-democratic and lots of brexit voters wouldn't vote again. If those who do not understand that voting is not only a right but also a duty then their staying at home would be a benefit to informed debates.

 

[OxygenJames]

stumbled on this piece

If the polls are anything to go by, far-right parties will do well from Finland to Italy. Fascism is not only a mainstream ideology again in Europe; the presence of fascists in government is now a banal fact of life across the continent.

The xenophobia, racism, and bigotry that contributed to Brexit and have certainly grown since the vote are by no means unique to Britain. Electorally at least, they have been less pronounced in Britain than elsewhere. Across Europe, traditional political parties have crumbled while far-right parties have grown. In Spain, the upstart Vox seems poised to become the first far-right party to gain more than a single seat in the Cortes Generales since the death of fascist dictator Francisco Franco in 1975.
...
These far-right groups have always mixed their antipathy toward immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, Muslims, nonwhite people, and Jews with a general contempt for the European project, which they blame for diluting their national character. The irony is that, thanks to Brexit, leaving the EU can no longer be bandied about as a vague threat. People can look at Britain—clueless, hapless, bold in its announcement that it would leave but now sheepish in its capacity to actually go—and think, “Whatever else it is we want, we don’t want that.”

https://www.thenation.com/article/brexit-europe-disaster-gary-younge/

That's what happens when you call ordinary decent people Nazi or similar for stating a preference for wanting to live with people who have a culture similar to their own.

 

[Danidl]

That's what happens when you call ordinary decent people Nazi or similar for stating a preference for wanting to live with people who have a culture similar to their own.

Hang on that is a perverse response. Of course we all like hanging out with people who share our views,who look like us and sing like us.. (well not me, obviously ,I cannot hold a note). The question is whether one would take ACTIVE steps to flustrate others who are different...and then what lengths one would go to.

 

[oldgroaner]

Again and again. Brexit voters are now simply painted by the liberal press as xenophobic, racist and bigots. It’s not even dressed up as some it’s all.

It’s tiring and it just reinforces opinion.

One of the reasons I voted out was because of the far right in Europe. That view is never reported on and I know I’m not alone in this viewpoint.

Juncker and Tusk have their first sectarian N.I killing on their hands. I wonder how many more there will be.

Lets see some proof that leavers are described thus
"Again and again. Brexit voters are now simply painted by the liberal press as xenophobic, racist and bigots. It’s not even dressed up as some it’s all.
We often hear the likes of Rees Mogg using this trope, perhaps some less perceptive people believe it?
Which liberal press are you referring to?
Don't you mean the Right wing press

Lets examine this headline in the Express
Ihttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714859/diane-abbott-leave-voters-racist-labour-party-conference-andrew-bridgen-jacob-rees-mogg

"Fury as Diane Abbott blasts Brexit voters as RACIST in outrageous tirade.

She didn't say "all" did she?
And this
"One of the reasons I voted out was because of the far right in Europe. That view is never reported on and I know I’m not alone in this viewpoint."

Interesting idea, you voted out because Farage and his friends were fooling around?
What a brilliant idea, leave them to get away with something we could have opposed because of what reason?
How do you conflate with fear of the right wing in Europe and voting for the very same right wing in the EU who want Brexit?
And finally the sectarian killing in N.I has absolutely nothing to do with Juncker and Tusk has it? never in your wildest dreams.

 

[vfr400]

I could impress the teacher telling her it was the space aliens that really built the pyramids.

Do you have any evidence that it wasn't aliens that built the pyramids? Do you know when they were built?

 

[vfr400]

I agree with your reasoning but you cant write off every conspiracy theory.
I remenber my grandad insisting men hadnt been to moon and that it had all been filmed in some studio, he was a lone voice at time and I put it down to his age. Read the evidence about that now and its not far fetched, not saying its case, but there is evidence for it. (and some of things Van Danikwn said)
Was JFK killed by a lone marksman? I doubt it. Yes, there is often smoke without fire but some things are lies that we generally accept as truth.
Was Blair involved in Dr Kelly "suicide"? We will probably never know. It does us all good to challenge accepted truth... Watergate? Birmingham 6?Bloody Sunday?
Its getting to point nowadays where I accept nothing without proof. We are lied to continually probably always have been but its getting harder to pull wool over our eyes, not easier.
Remember Blair and his WMD justification for war. I fell hook line and sinker for that... He was (is) so credible.

I remember George Galloway as just about the only person who stood up to Tony Blair. I thought he was some sort of commie nutter at the time, but he was the only one telling the truth. Here he is today still speaking the truth.

 

[Woosh]

I remember George Galloway as just about the only person who stood up to Tony Blair. I thought he was some sort of commie nutter at the time, but he was the only one telling the truth. Here he is today still speaking the truth.

and two million others who marched against the war, including my then 16 year old daughter. I kept the boards she brought home well after Blair has left office.
A lot of people knew that Blair exaggerated the risk posed by Saddam (his 45 minutes claim), lied about the Iraq dossier etc but it's clear, few British PMs could say no to POTUS.

 

[Zlatan]

Lets see some proof that leavers are described thus
"Again and again. Brexit voters are now simply painted by the liberal press as xenophobic, racist and bigots. It’s not even dressed up as some it’s all.
We often hear the likes of Rees Mogg using this trope, perhaps some less perceptive people believe it?
Which liberal press are you referring to?
Don't you mean the Right wing press

Lets examine this headline in the Express
Ihttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714859/diane-abbott-leave-voters-racist-labour-party-conference-andrew-bridgen-jacob-rees-mogg

"Fury as Diane Abbott blasts Brexit voters as RACIST in outrageous tirade.

She didn't say "all" did she?
And this
"One of the reasons I voted out was because of the far right in Europe. That view is never reported on and I know I’m not alone in this viewpoint."

Interesting idea, you voted out because Farage and his friends were fooling around?
What a brilliant idea, leave them to get away with something we could have opposed because of what reason?
How do you conflate with fear of the right wing in Europe and voting for the very same right wing in the EU who want Brexit?
And finally the sectarian killing in N.I has absolutely nothing to do with Juncker and Tusk has it? never in your wildest dreams.

Not sure what your point about DA is because I, m pretty sure you are not one of her admirers.. Anyway... Leaving EU is not fundamentaly either an extreme right or left concept. Both sides, and extremes, have and will exploit leaving for their own purposes. TM seems to stick to lwaving not on some politically motivated stance but on her principle of thinking its what country wants(or perhaps wanted)
Just because Farage and other right wing extremists have tried to hijack the cause does not mean individuals didnt vote to leave in opposition to the rise of the right in many parts of EU, far more so than here. Take France and Italy, they could quite easily end up with far right governments whom actually make Farage appear quite centrist.
Keep telling you OG, but you always put your slant on it, I voted leave and still believe in leaving to distance ourselves from many of the problems in EU,one of which is the rise of the extremists.
Its quite strange that probably the main reason Brexit has maintained its momentum is the support of it by the left,predominantly JC.
Brexit is not a left or right political stance, seeing it as such is missing the point. Many people from the entire political spectrum are alienated by the EU, what it stands for, the people running it, where it is going and whats happening in many places within EU. You actually dont have to be against an organization to not want to be part of it.
Its the point many remainers just dont understand. I like America, but I dont want to be governed from Washington,even if becoming the 54th state meant untold riches.
I simply dont want to be governed by the EU, no matter how many times you tell me its more democratic, we, ll be better off, its this or that. Its all irrelevant. Thanks for offer but no. I like Westminster, its foibles and its multi culturism. I, m happy being a British citizen. Dont want to be European. Been there, tried it. Not for me.
Since the day after referendum people have been calling leavers right wingers(amongst other things) . Its not the case at all. Our party politics does not represent the situation at all. Perhaps time for new divisions. Scrap our current leanings.
Think on, how can it be when over past 3 years JRM has had a very similar stance on, and requirements from, Brexit as JC?? That makes no sense.
We are operating a system of governance that simply cant represent our current situation. Its why no decisions are being made.

 

[oldgroaner]

Do you have any evidence that it wasn't aliens that built the pyramids? Do you know when they were built?

Can't you be bothered to look it up? there are complete dynastic records on the subject.
Or are these the sort of facts some leave voters don't believe in?

 

[oldgroaner]

Not sure what your point about DA is because I, m pretty sure you are not one of her admirers.. Anyway... Leaving EU is not fundamentaly either an extreme right or left concept. Both sides, and extremes, have and will exploit leaving for their own purposes. TM seems to stick to lwaving not on some politically motivated stance but on her principle of thinking its what country wants(or perhaps wanted)
Just because Farage and other right wing extremists have tried to hijack the cause does not mean individuals didnt vote to leave in opposition to the rise of the right in many parts of EU, far more so than here. Take France and Italy, they could quite easily end up with far right governments whom actually make Farage appear quite centrist.
Keep telling you OG, but you always put your slant on it, I voted leave and still believe in leaving to distance ourselves from many of the problems in EU,one of which is the rise of the extremists.
Its quite strange that probably the main reason Brexit has maintained its momentum is the support of it by the left,predominantly JC.
Brexit is not a left or right political stance, seeing it as such is missing the point. Many people from the entire political spectrum are alienated by the EU, what it stands for, the people running it, where it is going and whats happening in many places within EU. You actually dont have to be against an organization to not want to be part of it.
Its the point many remainers just dont understand. I like America, but I dont want to be governed from Washington,even if becoming the 54th state meant untold riches.
I simply dont want to be governed by the EU, no matter how many times you tell me its more democratic, we, ll be better off, its this or that. Its all irrelevant. Thanks for offer but no. I like Westminster, its foibles and its multi culturism. I, m happy being a British citizen. Dont want to be European. Been there, tried it. Not for me.
Since the day after referendum people have been calling leavers right wingers(amongst other things) . Its not the case at all. Our party politics does not represent the situation at all. Perhaps time for new divisions. Scrap our current leanings.
Think on, how can it be when over past 3 years JRM has had a very similar stance on, and requirements from, Brexit as JC?? That makes no sense.
We are operating a system of governance that simply cant represent our current situation. Its why no decisions are being made.

Unfortunately we can't distance ourselves from Europe and the far right there, the ditch between us is too narrow.
The only hope was to oppose them from within the EU
Outside it if they become powerful we are at their mercy

 

[Zlatan]

Unfortunately we can't distance ourselves from Europe and the far right there, the ditch between us is too narrow.
The only hope was to oppose them from within the EU
Outside it if they become powerful we are at their mercy

Yes, perhaps. But that is an opinion,of which you are perfectly entitled to hold and announce. Personally I, d rather leave but I see the reasoning.
Besides, our influence on who gets in power in individual countries is unchanged. But their influence over us is so much stronger if those same factions are represented in EU, which they are. (Penn and son both MEPs???)
To be perfectly honest if we were to become part of EU fully, with no Westminster and a single tier of EU wide governance and representation that would be OK, but the EU current situation of dual responsibility is seriously flawed. Whats the point of 2 governments? Scrap one or leave the other?

 

[gray198]

Why don't you add to it that I am an idiot for believing the wrong press and the far right is perfectly reasonable, intelligent, discerning, law abiding citizens?

virtually all the civil unrest, demonstrations and riots in this country are performed by the far left. Don't recall seeing any far right protests shutting down London or rioting over poll tax, or getting kids out of school complaining about climate change. All these are driven by the far left.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm a remainer, but to remain is now undemocratic. Anybody that has any understanding of how democracy works and how important it is needs to think very careful about these things. This is what Brexit has exposed. It's basically a fight between democracy and fascists. The fascists are not the guys that the press would have you believe. Instead, they're the ones that don't support free speech, human rights and the democratic process.

What democratic process are you referring to? I support all of those things but not a rigged referendum orchestrated with dark funds from questionable origins.
It should be run again more carefully monitored this time.
Where is the harm in that ?
It will give the same result if the Public want that, it isn't like winning a coconut at the fair, something you can keep forever.
Time to retest the public opinion before making so serious a step.
That is what Democracy is about, not a one time rub the lamp and make a wish situation.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, perhaps. But that is an opinion,of which you are perfectly entitled to hold and announce. Personally I, d rather leave but I see the reasoning.
Besides, our influence on who gets in power in individual countries is unchanged. But their influence over us is so much stronger if those same factions are represented in EU, which they are. (Penn and son both MEPs???)

What do we gain from leaving when it actually cost relatively little to remain?