Brexit, for once some facts.

Fingers

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I’ve thought about this. On the one hand it could be perceived as a fat Tory bully, snout in the trough of entitlement and gorging on self importance, who becomes angry because a pleb intrudes on his gluttony. This results in him losing control and laying his hands on the woman.

On the other hand, it could be a silly and poorly thought out act of protest by people who should know better. Trespassing on a formal event were the Chancellor is present is very likely going to result in your removal by a proportionate level of force.

I think the actual truth is placed somewhere between the two and both have some level of responsibility for what happened. I was please to hear the woman say she wasn’t considering any further action over what took place. I think that’s right under the circumstances.
This is equivocation, a deliberate attempt to make it appear ambiguous to hide the truth. A bit like trump did after Charlottesville when he defended the racist thugs by saying " there were good people on both sides". I dont - practically - mind underendowed right wing nutters with overactive imaginations engaging in this kind of self deceit/deceit. But on a more national level it feels part of an Orwellian kind of double talk emerging that rationalise violence, oppression.
[/QUOTE]


Just calm down. I can feel your anger pulsing through you like a tsunami. You are going to really do some lasting damage to yourself.

Just calm down.
 
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50Hertz

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Jan 2, 2019
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On the contrary, it was a brilliant well thought out act of protest,carried out with panach.
I suppose perception is all relative. I’m sure that you won’t mind me saying that you seem to be a person who sets them-self a low level of personal standards and achievement, so I can appreciate how you would be impressed by the protesters actions.

The Chancellor thingy was just a jolly jape for the protesters. It’s achieving publicity, but it’s doubtful if it will actually alter anything for the better. Their efforts would be better served by engaging with the next generation by going into schools and presenting/ encouraging a more sustainable lifestyle.

You need to raise your aim. I’m sure that you too can do better if you try.
 

50Hertz

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Jan 2, 2019
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Back to the main theme of this thread... and with certain nostalgic references I enclose this article from yesterday's Irish times.. and as can be seen it originated in the FT
On a scale of one to seven, how well do you understand how a flush lavatory works?

This was a question asked by two Yale psychologists, Leonid Rozenblit and Frank Keil, almost two decades ago. Before I explain why, here’s a follow-up exercise: write down your lavatory explanation in as much detail as you can. You may wish to draw a diagram, or explain it to a friend. Or not.

You may then reflect that you knew a little less than you realised. That was the experience of many of the study’s subjects - and not just for lavatories (why does all the water disappear down the U-bend?) but also for zips, quartz watches, helicopters, speedometers, cylinder locks, piano keys and sewing machines. People felt they understood the mechanisms that surrounded them, but their confidence was severely dented by the simple act of giving them pencil and paper and saying: “Show me.”

Policy
The same exercise can be performed with politics. In 2013, Steven Sloman and Philip Fernbach, authors of The Knowledge Illusion, were members of a research team that did just that, inviting people resident in the US to rate their understanding of American policy proposals such as introducing unilateral sanctions on Iran, a cap-and-trade system for carbon emissions and a national flat tax. They also asked people to rate their approval of each policy, which would have been unnecessary for lavatories and zips. (Lavatories are useful, zips self-evidently malevolent.)

Professors Sloman and Fernbach and their colleagues found that - just as with locks and speedometers - people tended to overrate their knowledge at first, and then discover some humility when asked to be more specific.

Perhaps British voters could use a dose of the same medicine when it comes to our understanding of Brexit. Leave or Remain, many of us came late to the realisation that there was a difference between the single market and the customs union. I am still not sure most people can explain what that difference is. Many people have strong views about Prime Minister Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement; rather fewer could give a convincing account of how it differs from the political declaration that accompanies it.


Demand
When Mrs May began her premiership with the statement that “Brexit means Brexit”, it dawned on most of us that the details of the whole project might need a little more work. But she wasn’t the only one who was vague.

I’d love to see the contenders for the Conservative party leadership quizzed a little less about their cocaine habits and instead forced to sit down and write a detailed explanation of what a no-deal Brexit actually is. While we wait, perhaps the same exercise could be given to the 160,000 Conservative party members who are about to select the country’s next prime minister.

How long, for example, will HM Revenue & Customs wave through imports without inspections? Will the French reciprocate? What are the implications of “trading under World Trade Organization rules” for the UK’s banking and insurance industries? How large are those industries?

How many other developed countries are content to rely solely on WTO arrangements in their trade with the EU? Is the WTO capable of enforcing the rules anyway, given the current crisis in its appellate body? How likely is the EU to grant permission to British farmers to sell meat, milk or cheese? Would any of these decisions be different if the UK refused to pay the “divorce bill” it had negotiated?

I don’t think it is especially shameful that we ordinary voters are incurious about the ins and outs of Brexit, any more than we should be obliged to understand the workings of a quartz watch. An ability to read the time is generally sufficient. But I am stunned by just how little we seem to demand of our political leaders.

Standards
We want tailors to understand sewing machines, locksmiths to understand locks and plumbers to know that a lavatory is basically a siphon. But our standards for politicians seem far lower. The next prime minister is likely to be a person who believes that if we demanded it with enough gusto, sewage would remove itself from our homes in some scatological remix of Mary Poppins - and that anyone who tells you otherwise is clearly a shill for Big Porcelain.

We should expect more of anyone who wants to lead the country. And since our politicians have grown so fond of punting the hard questions back to us, perhaps we should also demand more of ourselves.

Profs Sloman and Fernbach found that asking people to explain the workings of the policies they so fervently supported or opposed had a humbling effect. When people realised that they knew less than they had once believed, they quite reasonably wound their necks in as a result. It seems strange to die in a ditch for something we can’t clearly explain, even to ourselves.

Next time you find yourself in some heated political debate, perhaps you should suggest that both sides pause to explain the policy in question. You may find you understand less - and agree more - than you realised. – Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2019
Yeah, yeah........next
 

jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
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I'd ignore the siphon toilet, simple enough though it is, and baffle them with my answer. I have a Fluidmaster flapper Valve ;)

:
Ok, I suspect you may see this one coming. But what are its advantages over a bog standard toilet ( no pun intended)?
 
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oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Back to the main theme of this thread... and with certain nostalgic references I enclose this article from yesterday's Irish times.. and as can be seen it originated in the FT
On a scale of one to seven, how well do you understand how a flush lavatory works?

This was a question asked by two Yale psychologists, Leonid Rozenblit and Frank Keil, almost two decades ago. Before I explain why, here’s a follow-up exercise: write down your lavatory explanation in as much detail as you can. You may wish to draw a diagram, or explain it to a friend. Or not.

You may then reflect that you knew a little less than you realised. That was the experience of many of the study’s subjects - and not just for lavatories (why does all the water disappear down the U-bend?) but also for zips, quartz watches, helicopters, speedometers, cylinder locks, piano keys and sewing machines. People felt they understood the mechanisms that surrounded them, but their confidence was severely dented by the simple act of giving them pencil and paper and saying: “Show me.”

Policy
The same exercise can be performed with politics. In 2013, Steven Sloman and Philip Fernbach, authors of The Knowledge Illusion, were members of a research team that did just that, inviting people resident in the US to rate their understanding of American policy proposals such as introducing unilateral sanctions on Iran, a cap-and-trade system for carbon emissions and a national flat tax. They also asked people to rate their approval of each policy, which would have been unnecessary for lavatories and zips. (Lavatories are useful, zips self-evidently malevolent.)

Professors Sloman and Fernbach and their colleagues found that - just as with locks and speedometers - people tended to overrate their knowledge at first, and then discover some humility when asked to be more specific.

Perhaps British voters could use a dose of the same medicine when it comes to our understanding of Brexit. Leave or Remain, many of us came late to the realisation that there was a difference between the single market and the customs union. I am still not sure most people can explain what that difference is. Many people have strong views about Prime Minister Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement; rather fewer could give a convincing account of how it differs from the political declaration that accompanies it.


Demand
When Mrs May began her premiership with the statement that “Brexit means Brexit”, it dawned on most of us that the details of the whole project might need a little more work. But she wasn’t the only one who was vague.

I’d love to see the contenders for the Conservative party leadership quizzed a little less about their cocaine habits and instead forced to sit down and write a detailed explanation of what a no-deal Brexit actually is. While we wait, perhaps the same exercise could be given to the 160,000 Conservative party members who are about to select the country’s next prime minister.

How long, for example, will HM Revenue & Customs wave through imports without inspections? Will the French reciprocate? What are the implications of “trading under World Trade Organization rules” for the UK’s banking and insurance industries? How large are those industries?

How many other developed countries are content to rely solely on WTO arrangements in their trade with the EU? Is the WTO capable of enforcing the rules anyway, given the current crisis in its appellate body? How likely is the EU to grant permission to British farmers to sell meat, milk or cheese? Would any of these decisions be different if the UK refused to pay the “divorce bill” it had negotiated?

I don’t think it is especially shameful that we ordinary voters are incurious about the ins and outs of Brexit, any more than we should be obliged to understand the workings of a quartz watch. An ability to read the time is generally sufficient. But I am stunned by just how little we seem to demand of our political leaders.

Standards
We want tailors to understand sewing machines, locksmiths to understand locks and plumbers to know that a lavatory is basically a siphon. But our standards for politicians seem far lower. The next prime minister is likely to be a person who believes that if we demanded it with enough gusto, sewage would remove itself from our homes in some scatological remix of Mary Poppins - and that anyone who tells you otherwise is clearly a shill for Big Porcelain.

We should expect more of anyone who wants to lead the country. And since our politicians have grown so fond of punting the hard questions back to us, perhaps we should also demand more of ourselves.

Profs Sloman and Fernbach found that asking people to explain the workings of the policies they so fervently supported or opposed had a humbling effect. When people realised that they knew less than they had once believed, they quite reasonably wound their necks in as a result. It seems strange to die in a ditch for something we can’t clearly explain, even to ourselves.

Next time you find yourself in some heated political debate, perhaps you should suggest that both sides pause to explain the policy in question. You may find you understand less - and agree more - than you realised. – Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2019
Interesting. I have read many stories of people discussing disease with doctors. When patients ask for an explanation, the doctors can usually come out with some off-pat words. But further questioning can really undermine their certainty.

Many absolutely do not understand the processes that result in the known signs and symptoms.

If you go further and suggest treatment B (rather than the doctor's offered treatment A), despite the logic of B being what the doctor has just tried to explain, it can elicit some very unpleasant responses. Severe discomfort when understanding is undermined, more so when the undermining comes from the patient.

(This all can be done totally innocently. Though, when done with intent it tends to provoke barely concealed anger.)
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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I suppose perception is all relative. I’m sure that you won’t mind me saying that you seem to be a person who sets them-self a low level of personal standards and achievement, so I can appreciate how you would be impressed by the protesters actions.

The Chancellor thingy was just a jolly jape for the protesters. It’s achieving publicity, but it’s doubtful if it will actually alter anything for the better. Their efforts would be better served by engaging with the next generation by going into schools and presenting/ encouraging a more sustainable lifestyle.

You need to raise your aim. I’m sure that you too can do better if you try.
Which part of the word Protest did you fail to understand?. I might fully agree with your assessment that there are more fruitful actions.
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
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Which part of the word Protest did you fail to understand?.
That’s not a question. Try to raise your game. You are still aiming far too low. I believe in you and definitely think you can do much better.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
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Back to the main theme of this thread... and with certain nostalgic references I enclose this article from yesterday's Irish times.. and as can be seen it originated in the FT
On a scale of one to seven, how well do you understand how a flush lavatory works?

This was a question asked by two Yale psychologists, Leonid Rozenblit and Frank Keil, almost two decades ago. Before I explain why, here’s a follow-up exercise: write down your lavatory explanation in as much detail as you can. You may wish to draw a diagram, or explain it to a friend. Or not.

You may then reflect that you knew a little less than you realised. That was the experience of many of the study’s subjects - and not just for lavatories (why does all the water disappear down the U-bend?) but also for zips, quartz watches, helicopters, speedometers, cylinder locks, piano keys and sewing machines. People felt they understood the mechanisms that surrounded them, but their confidence was severely dented by the simple act of giving them pencil and paper and saying: “Show me.”

Policy
The same exercise can be performed with politics. In 2013, Steven Sloman and Philip Fernbach, authors of The Knowledge Illusion, were members of a research team that did just that, inviting people resident in the US to rate their understanding of American policy proposals such as introducing unilateral sanctions on Iran, a cap-and-trade system for carbon emissions and a national flat tax. They also asked people to rate their approval of each policy, which would have been unnecessary for lavatories and zips. (Lavatories are useful, zips self-evidently malevolent.)

Professors Sloman and Fernbach and their colleagues found that - just as with locks and speedometers - people tended to overrate their knowledge at first, and then discover some humility when asked to be more specific.

Perhaps British voters could use a dose of the same medicine when it comes to our understanding of Brexit. Leave or Remain, many of us came late to the realisation that there was a difference between the single market and the customs union. I am still not sure most people can explain what that difference is. Many people have strong views about Prime Minister Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement; rather fewer could give a convincing account of how it differs from the political declaration that accompanies it.


Demand
When Mrs May began her premiership with the statement that “Brexit means Brexit”, it dawned on most of us that the details of the whole project might need a little more work. But she wasn’t the only one who was vague.

I’d love to see the contenders for the Conservative party leadership quizzed a little less about their cocaine habits and instead forced to sit down and write a detailed explanation of what a no-deal Brexit actually is. While we wait, perhaps the same exercise could be given to the 160,000 Conservative party members who are about to select the country’s next prime minister.

How long, for example, will HM Revenue & Customs wave through imports without inspections? Will the French reciprocate? What are the implications of “trading under World Trade Organization rules” for the UK’s banking and insurance industries? How large are those industries?

How many other developed countries are content to rely solely on WTO arrangements in their trade with the EU? Is the WTO capable of enforcing the rules anyway, given the current crisis in its appellate body? How likely is the EU to grant permission to British farmers to sell meat, milk or cheese? Would any of these decisions be different if the UK refused to pay the “divorce bill” it had negotiated?

I don’t think it is especially shameful that we ordinary voters are incurious about the ins and outs of Brexit, any more than we should be obliged to understand the workings of a quartz watch. An ability to read the time is generally sufficient. But I am stunned by just how little we seem to demand of our political leaders.

Standards
We want tailors to understand sewing machines, locksmiths to understand locks and plumbers to know that a lavatory is basically a siphon. But our standards for politicians seem far lower. The next prime minister is likely to be a person who believes that if we demanded it with enough gusto, sewage would remove itself from our homes in some scatological remix of Mary Poppins - and that anyone who tells you otherwise is clearly a shill for Big Porcelain.

We should expect more of anyone who wants to lead the country. And since our politicians have grown so fond of punting the hard questions back to us, perhaps we should also demand more of ourselves.

Profs Sloman and Fernbach found that asking people to explain the workings of the policies they so fervently supported or opposed had a humbling effect. When people realised that they knew less than they had once believed, they quite reasonably wound their necks in as a result. It seems strange to die in a ditch for something we can’t clearly explain, even to ourselves.

Next time you find yourself in some heated political debate, perhaps you should suggest that both sides pause to explain the policy in question. You may find you understand less - and agree more - than you realised. – Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2019
Since I was involved in the Design of Flush Toilets, and associated cisterns, and both flush and Siphon valves,also responsible for field and warranty claims, involving not only them but the full systems of sanitation and relevant regulations (at least up to the years 2002, if you have any questions I shall be happy to answer them.
In fact I spent a couple of years training plumbers and customer service staff on these delightful and for once useful inventions.
 

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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Since I was involved in the Design of Flush Toilets, and associated cisterns, and both flush and Siphon valves,also responsible for field and warranty claims, involving not only them but the full systems of sanitation and relevant regulations (at least up to the years 2002, if you have any questions I shall be happy to answer them.
In fact I spent a couple of years training plumbers and customer service staff on these delightful and for once useful inventions.

Explains everything.

Everything about you is bog standard.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I'd ignore the siphon toilet, simple enough though it is, and baffle them with my answer. I have a Fluidmaster flapper Valve ;)

:
And they are only legal in this country because the EU legislated in favour of them, they did not at the time this happened comply with the UK water regulations, because as they wear, they tend to dribble water to waste virtually invisibly down the back of the pan, only noticeable when a lime stain appears.
Our water regulations stipulated three things
1: that the had to be a visible form of warning of water loss if the flushing mechanism leaked
(This precluded the Flapper valve for the reason i mentioned) and the said warning mechanism had to appear on the outside of the building in case it was unoccupied.
2: A syphon prevents water loss in the same was as once the flush finished the water stops flowing and cannot (theoretically leave over the spillover level in the syphon which has to be higher that the filled cistern water level
2: in the event of a total failure of the ballvalve supplying water this warning over flow had to be unable to carry away the full flow, and this is the cruel part.
3: The rear wall of all cisterns had to have a cut out below the spillover level of the syphon to permit the massive flow occurring if the ballvalve or servo water delivery valve fails at full bore, thus flooding the house deliberately and causing the occupants to take urgent action to stop the leak

The reason valves like the one flecc has came in was simple the flush volume permitted under EU and of course UK regulations dropped from 13 litre to 9, then 6, and is now at 4.5 (it may even be 3 as I am way out of date after 14 years or retirement.
Siphons have a slow start to their action , then speed up and slow down at the end, they do not perform well compared to the instant Slam, bam thank you Mam! of the flapper valve where there is so little water and consequently as is said in the comedy film "Chicken Run"
"We need more Thrust!"
Hope this helps
Crikey I was remembering a lecture I delivered in our training centre in the 1990's there
 
Last edited:

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Explains everything.

Everything about you is bog standard.
Which makes me far more useful than you will ever be, the things I designed were useful to the human race.
My job was to efficiently dispose of a load of crap, and here I am still involved in that process when replying to your posts, nothing changes does it?
 
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Fingers

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Which makes me far more useful than you will ever be, the things I designed were useful to the human race.
My job was to efficiently dispose of a load of crap, and here I am still involved in that process when replying to your posts, nothing changes does it?

You simply found your level. Turns out it was ****.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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Interesting. I have read many stories of people discussing disease with doctors. When patients ask for an explanation, the doctors can usually come out with some off-pat words. But further questioning can really undermine their certainty.

Many absolutely do not understand the processes that result in the known signs and symptoms.

If you go further and suggest treatment B (rather than the doctor's offered treatment A), despite the logic of B being what the doctor has just tried to explain, it can elicit some very unpleasant responses. Severe discomfort when understanding is undermined, more so when the undermining comes from the patient.

(This all can be done totally innocently. Though, when done with intent it tends to provoke barely concealed anger.)
It's happened to me. I think most people imagine medicine is an exact science rather than the preparadigmatic mess of inductive reasoning and hypothesis it really is. The problem is that one can then find oneself alone wit a complex medical problem and difficult alternatives
 
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