Brexit, for once some facts.

cosybike

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Mar 30, 2009
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Both options, Leave or Stay are a step into the unknown. I am saying that you can't predict what will happen if we leave, you can guess but that is all. Your forecast is no more certain than any other prediction.
My guess is that we can maintain a friendly and peaceful relationship with Europe whilst selling to the countries which want our goods and services. Similarly, we can buy goods from those countries which offer something appealing to us. That has happened since the beginning of time and it will continue with or without the EU, history is on our side.

The EU stance seems to indicate that friendship, cooperation and trade will be stamped out, extinguished and not be allowed to flourish unless we surrender increasing amounts of our independence to this faceless system which no one seems to identify with. It does not have to be like that, we can be friends with the EU after Brexit. Of course, if another EU nation repays our friendship and help with acts of open hostility and aggression in the form of an invasion (as seems to be prophesised by the IN Campaign), we have our Trident missile system with which to defend ourselves.
"With which to defend ourselves" Christ almighty! This is the reason we all decided this was NEVER to happen again!!!

If everyone is going to be firing trident missiles around, the future of Europe will be the LAST thing on anyones mind.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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"With which to defend ourselves" Christ almighty! This is the reason we all decided this was NEVER to happen again!!!

If everyone is going to be firing trident missiles around, the future of Europe will be the LAST thing on anyones mind.
I didn't say that everyone would be firing Trident missiles. You imply that I said they would be used as an act of aggression, which I didn't. Also, no other EU country has Trident, so we can't ALL be firing them around. Why are you saying these things?

I said that if the uk faced invaision, which it almost certainly won't but Call Me Dave thinks we might if we exit, we have a defensive system in the form of Trident.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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BREXIT seems to be enjoying a seven point lead, if you can believe the polls.

I definitely sense support for leave in this area, with lots of leave posters. In fact I haven't seen one supporting remain. Even the farmers that I have spoken to want out, which surprised me. One old farmer said to me, "EU? It's back legs have gone youth" I suppose that's one way of putting it.

The immigration topic seems to be boosting leave, which isn't unexpected since it's a major concern for most people, but one which is constantly swept under the carpet. Well it looks like it's coming back, with gnashing teeth!
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
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yes, Brexit campaign is doing very well this week. Unless the BBC manage to teach A-level economics to 50% of the population in the next two weeks, we are indeed heading to exiting the EU.

Current status:
Remain: 51%
Leave: 49%

The Brexit's strategy works very well.
You have different people promissing extra spending the same 10 billion Pounds on different things!
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,199
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The Brexit camp hit a new low in the Daily Mail today with a picture captioned.
"Around half a dozen more Border Force vessels will be deployed by the Home Office, but Downing Street said today they won't be fully operational until the end of 2017. Above, one of Britain's three current Border Force vessels is pictured in Kent following the rescue mission of 18 Albanians found in an inflatable boat that had sunk in the Channel over the weekend

And the accompanying image? an RNLI Severn class lifeboat that had just rescued the Albanian from death at sea.
This seems typical of the Brexit point of view in seeing just what they want to, and ignoring reality when it is inconvenient. In the image you can clearly see the word "Lifeboats" and the RNLI flag on the superstructure yet this is down as a patrol boat and from the comments underneath the fools reading it don't know the difference!
This is an insult to the RNLI, as if it has the job of only rescuing people found acceptable to these Brexit supporters and allowing the others to drown.
How low can the press go in support of Brexit?
And it certainly gives a damning insight into the attitude of people who support a campaign that will allow fellow human beings to drown at sea for the sake of personal gain.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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BREXIT seems to be enjoying a seven point lead, if you can believe the polls.

I definitely sense support for leave in this area, with lots of leave posters. In fact I haven't seen one supporting remain. Even the farmers that I have spoken to want out, which surprised me. One old farmer said to me, "EU? It's back legs have gone youth" I suppose that's one way of putting it.

The immigration topic seems to be boosting leave, which isn't unexpected since it's a major concern for most people, but one which is constantly swept under the carpet. Well it looks like it's coming back, with gnashing teeth!
Swept under the carpet? it's all over the right wing press every day and certainly outlines just how inhuman the Brexit campaigners are where these people get into trouble while at sea.
Greed will always overcome humanity, won't it?
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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it's all over the right wing press every day and certainly outlines just how inhuman the Brexit campaigners are where these people get into trouble while at sea.
Greed will always overcome humanity, won't it?
Why go to sea in the first place? I'm talking about the latest criminal attack on the UK by migrants trying to cross the channel by small boat. France is a safe country, so I'm affraid the refugee card won't work. In fact it stopped working years ago when the word refugee was high jacked and devalued by hoards of migrants lobbing bricks at border agency staff.

If they get into trouble trying to cross from France to the UK then they have no one else to blame but themselves. It will be a totally self inflicted situation for which they are entirely responsible.
 

D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
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As one who has been on the streets of Herts and Essex, leafletting and canvassing support for the 'Remain' camp, I think I have heard probably every argument from the anti-EU lobby and I'm bound to say, the vast, vast majority that I have engaged with sound dangerously close to the ultra-fascist, Britain First grouping, masquerading as a political party.

Other than a contribution in the early days of this thread, I have deliberately abstained from further comment but I'd just like to formally acknowledge my empathy with 'oldgroaner' and 'flecc' who seem to have a better, more informed grasp of the pros & cons than most of those who have populated the thread.

In my travels disseminating the 'Remain' message, the biggest problem I have faced is trying to get people to understand the difference between the policies of the tory party and EU initiatives. The tories love this deliberate blurring of distinction and their media wing has created and taken great advantage of this myth that everything is the EU's fault.

I am not going to regurgitate material that has been covered in many areas previously, other than to state that an awful lot of people simply fail to recognise, (or are in denial), that the demise of Britain's industries, particularly the exporting ones, and the diminished effectiveness of our great institutions like the NHS, rail, power and other public utilities has nothing whatsoever to do with people in Brussels. All these things result from the very deliberate policies of tory government.

If the 'Brexit' camp were to triumph in the referendum, what would we do? Would we embark once more on over-fishing; set artificial territorial limits to keep out those fishermen from other countries? Start another cod-war with tiny Iceland?

Were it not for the EU, there would be no control over fishing quotas and it wouldn't just be a handful of Icelandic trawlers we'd be competing with; the Russians would step in, taking advantage of any perceived split in the EU. It's the same EU that has provided the means through sensible control and a compensation system by which farming right across the community has been able to continue in a meaningful way.

Nothing is perfect but the strength of any collective or union lies in unity. Outside of the EU, the UK has very little bargaining power and no means at all of being heard in debate. There is no going back - we've been there and it wasn't really all that good. The world has changed, continues to change and the future of our children is unlikely to be best served as an independent, non-exporting country, unable to free itself of a self-developed, post WW2, superiority complex.

All the jingoism and xenophobia which colour the Brexit campaign are exactly the same mantra we have come to expect from England football fans and its worth can be measured in the number of world cups and European championships won by the country over the last half-century.

Sadly, the most telling thing I have learned on the streets is that a great number of people don't understand the difference between migrant and refugee. A common qualification in speech patterns goes along the lines of, 'I'm not racist but.....'. There is also a perception abroad that the UK has already taken on more than its fair share of 'these people' and we should slam the door on any others headed our way. That misconception becomes so exaggerated in the minds of some people that they don't understand and seemingly cannot accept that many other countries, even less affluent and much smaller than the UK, have absorbed far more immigrants than us.

So, while we seem able to overcome the language barrier inevitable when discussions between more than a couple of dozen countries occur, we seem to have a real difficulty with our own language - migrant/refugee, xenophobia/racism.

In a little over three weeks time, we shall have an answer to the great question but, much as I dislike 'Ca-moron', I hope the 'Remain' camp wins the day and perhaps brings an end to the political aspirations of the buffoon, Johnson, and the two disloyal and despicable, opportunist, fascist Scots, Gove and Duncan-Smith. Whether in or out of the EU, Britain deserves better than than these self-serving individuals.

Tom
I agree with you but for your racist statement. The vast majority of Tories are English not Scottish.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Why go to sea in the first place? I'm talking about the latest criminal attack on the UK by migrants trying to cross the channel by small boat. France is a safe country, so I'm affraid the refugee card won't work. In fact it stopped working years ago when the word refugee was high jacked and devalued by hoards of migrants lobbing bricks at border agency staff.

If they get into trouble trying to cross from France to the UK then they have no one else to blame but themselves. It will be a totally self inflicted situation for which they are entirely responsible.
Congratulations on revealing your truly staggering attitude to the value of human life when you find you own convenience is threatened.
And if there are children aboard these boats? what then? is their situation self inflicted?
Alas this is all too typical of modern times and makes a mockery of the notion that we "British" are something special, rather than the rather sordid, selfish and a times callous and cruel lot that history has shown us to be.
It seems from your comments some of us still are.
"Criminal attack on the UK?" did you really write that?
How does that compare with "Causing the deaths by neglect of people in distress on the high seas?"
Not only is that fundamentally morally wrong but it is also illegal under international Maritime Law.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Congratulations on revealing your truly staggering attitude to the value of human life when you find you own convenience is threatened.
And if there are children aboard these boats? what then? is their situation self inflicted?
Alas this is all too typical of modern times and makes a mockery of the notion that we "British" are something special, rather than the rather sordid, selfish and a times callous and cruel lot that history has shown us to be.
It seems from your comments some of us still are.
"Criminal attack on the UK?" did you really write that?
How does that compare with "Causing the deaths by neglect of people in distress on the high seas?"
Not only is that fundamentally morally wrong but it is also illegal under international Maritime Law.
Cutting through crap which your message is encased in, certain facts remain:

1/ They are not fleeing danger or persecution.

2/ They are attempting a criminal act, which is to enter the UK illegally. (Criminal Attempts Act).

3/ They have boarded a boat and entered one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. This is reckless and with reckless acts comes danger. This is the equivalent of getting into an aircraft and deliberately busting controlled airspace. This puts others in danger too, particularly those involved in any form of rescue.

4/ They ARE responsible for their actions. They alone have swapped the safety of France for the peril of the sea. Not me, you or anyone else has made them do that, so stop dripping like a knackered old tap and wake up to the reality reality that they are chancers and that chancers sometimes come unstuck.

5/ Removing the temptation to get in a boat in the first place by eliminating the people who illegally facilitate the crossings would be a good start.

6/ You seem to despise the British. If that is the case, why don't you FO somewhere else?
 

damian

Pedelecer
Sep 16, 2015
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Cutting through crap which your message is encased in, certain facts remain:

1/ They are not fleeing danger or persecution.

2/ They are attempting a criminal act, which is to enter the UK illegally. (Criminal Attempts Act).

3/ They have boarded a boat and entered one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. This is reckless and with reckless acts comes danger. This is the equivalent of getting into an aircraft and deliberately busting controlled airspace. This puts others in danger too, particularly those involved in any form of rescue.

4/ They ARE responsible for their actions. They alone have swapped the safety of France for the peril of the sea. Not me, you or anyone else has made them do that, so stop dripping like a knackered old tap and wake up to the reality reality that they are chancers and that chancers sometimes come unstuck.

5/ Removing the temptation to get in a boat in the first place by eliminating the people who illegally facilitate the crossings would be a good start.

6/ You seem to despise the British. If that is the case, why don't you FO somewhere else?
Three questions:
Do you realise that we are talking about people? Not cardboard cut-outs.

In what sense are their actions an ' attack on UK law'? Any more than you breaking the speed limit is an 'attack on the law'

Having got into distress, are we not obliged to save them? Would you turn them back out to sea?

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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,721
27,496
I suspect that some of the remainers in parliament, particularly the conservative party are really Brexiters but have taken that line as a career option. It will be interesting to see how they react should we vote to leave
Some certainly, but the majority on both sides of the house are clearly remainers. Even with a free vote, the House of Commons woud never vote to leave the EU.
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gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
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A good balanced programme on BBC last night with Laura Kuensberg. Nice to see a reasonable view from both sides

gray
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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Three questions:
Do you realise that we are talking about people? Not cardboard cut-outs.

In what sense are their actions an ' attack on UK law'? Any more than you breaking the speed limit is an 'attack on the law'

Having got into distress, are we not obliged to save them? Would you turn them back out to sea?

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1/ Yes I am aware that the people in the boats have not been constructed from cardboard.

2/ Illegal entry into the UK is a criminal offence.

3/ I don't break the speed limit.

4/ Yes, despite deliberately getting into a totally unsuitable, ill equipped boat and entering one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, I would put myself at risk to rescue them if they got into difficulty.

They would then have their backsides kicked back to where they came from within a few hours.
 

gray198

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Apr 4, 2012
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Three questions:
Do you realise that we are talking about people? Not cardboard cut-outs.
Of course once they are in danger they have to be helped, but I think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions and if they are stupid enough to get on that boat and even take children with them, then sooner or later there will be a tragedy . They cannot even say they are fleeing a dangerous country. Many are simply trying to get to the UK for the perceived benefits

gray

In what sense are their actions an ' attack on UK law'? Any more than you breaking the speed limit is an 'attack on the law'

Having got into distress, are we not obliged to save them? Would you turn them back out to sea?

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk
 

gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
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Don't know what happened to my post so I'll try again. Of course if people are in danger then they must be given help, but they have to take responsibility for their actions. If they are stupid enough to get aboard these boats and take children with them to try and cross one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world then sooner or later there will be a tragedy. After all they are not running from a dangerous country. So we can only assume that they are coming to the UK for the perceived benefits. It does actually show that all the government talk about strong borders is a pile of garbage.

gray
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
49,721
27,496
Why go to sea in the first place? I'm talking about the latest criminal attack on the UK by migrants trying to cross the channel by small boat. France is a safe country, so I'm affraid the refugee card won't work. In fact it stopped working years ago when the word refugee was high jacked and devalued by hoards of migrants lobbing bricks at border agency staff.

If they get into trouble trying to cross from France to the UK then they have no one else to blame but themselves. It will be a totally self inflicted situation for which they are entirely responsible.
While there is plenty of truth in what you say Tillson, the trouble that I and I'm sure others have is that you are in effect saying that much of our aid to those in distress is wrong.

Many road accident victims, including cyclists, have brought their misfortune on themselves. Should we leave them by the roadside to slowly die?

Mountaineers, off-road cyclists and motorcyclists, parachutists and fell walkers often get into difficulties. Should we just ignore them then because indulgence in their voluntary activity was high risk?

Should we reject from A & E all those with self-inflicted accidental injuries and refuse treatment for smokers and heavy drinkers?

It's impossible to draw a line, so in the name of humanity we try to rescue all those in peril, no matter what the cause. Especially children.
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