Buying First Electric Bike

Ian · May 12, 2007

Hello Steven, a 23 mile journey in under an hour is a very tough call for any UK legal bike, even when de-restricted. The kind of speeds you would have to ride at to maintain a 23 mph average are well above the point at which the motor cuts out and therefore you would effectively be riding an unpowered machine and would have to work very hard indeed.

From experiences with my own Torq, when de-restricted I've found it's possible to average about 20 mph on reasonably level terrain and while I've never checked the range under these conditions I'd very much doubt that 23 miles would be possible, even with a battery in peak condition.

Realistically, and allowing for the inevitable deterioration of the battery, the only way you can be reasonably sure of doing the 23 miles on a single charge is to limit the powered speed to around the legal 15.5 mph, either by keeping it restricted or being careful with the throttle, and putting in a fair amount of legwork.

You don't say how steep or long the hill is, but my own Torq hardly notices ramps up to bridges, even high steep ones. Such hills are generally conquered so quickly that the speed doesn't fall much bellow the optimum and my legs are easily able to supply the extra effort for the short period needed. It's longer hills that some Torq owners experience difficulties with, although I don't normally have problems Maybe my expectations are lower.

50cycles, the UK Ezee distributor, have a network of demonstrators throughout the UK so it may be possible to try a Torq in your local area.

I know very little about the Bionx, it may well give you the speed (But not legaly), but would be very unlikely to give the range you need without extra batteries.

Ian.

PS All of the above assumes you're in the UK, if not then much of it won't be relevant.

JohnInStockie · May 12, 2007

Hi Steven

23 Miles each way - my that is a long way. The only way I know of that you could do it is to either buy the Forza/Forte and also a spare battery and swap over half way through, or buy one of the new Giant Twist versions that claim to have a range of upto 60 miles.

There are a few reviews on the Bionx, but I have no experience of that. Personally, I wanted one that was pre-assembled, I'm not a keen bike engineer and didnt want the hassle.

Have you checked out the A to B website. I think that they have some good info on the capacity of many of the bikes around.

There was a bike I was looking at the other day that came with a space for a second battery as standard, I'll try and remember.

A tip - a subscription to A to B magazine will help, as you can specify the back issues you want, meaning you can get the reviews. It helped me in choosing the bike I wanted when I was looking around for my bike .

John

Baboonking · May 12, 2007

Hi Steven,

To sustain 20 mph over 23 miles your going to need a big battery. Ian suggestion to drop your speed will make things less expensive. You might want to look at the crystalyte and Puma kits and lithium batteries from Team hybrid (teamhybrid.co.uk hand cycles | Home page [tel: 00 44 (0)1329 830 117]) . Another choice would be an ezee torq (de-restricted) or forte with 2 batteries.

ITSPETEINIT · May 12, 2007

A First e-bike

Steven said:
Looking to leave the car at home. I have a 23 mile commute each way some paved trail, one high incline bridge, than street while dealing with a lot of wind. Myself late fortys 200lbs, I don't mind sweating it out a little?

Have three options on bikes and not sure which is the best direction to go?

Ezee Torque which I like the style not sure if it can handle the hill.
Ezee Forte expensive and not sure if it can handle the distance.Or the Bionx 350w a with Lithum battery.

I have no local dealer for Ezee so that is a slight concern. Also it would be
nice to get the 23 miles accomplished in under an hour.

If I can pull this off I can hopefully convert my office mates to do the same.

Appreciate any suggestions

I cannot give any opinion of the Bionx nor the Forte.
I have a Torq.
My Profile is likes yours in some respects - Weight 200lbs: (this is where we diverge) - Age 78: Fitness level low.
To climb hills steeper then 7% I had to fit gears that gave a low of 40 inches: I chose a 44 tooth chain wheel (Sugino but Stronglight is an inexpensive option too) and a 12-32 Cassette teamed with an Sh. Alvio Rear Mech. It works like a dream. I don't us the lowest gear much (thank god!) but on 10% its absolutely essential for my survival (and also if power died out there somewhere)
I don't think you will need it for a steep bridge: you can charge at that and sail over the top (it will help if the speed limiter is bypassed and a switch place on the handlebars in circuit (only legal to use off-road).

True it uses more power than the unrestricted mode but you can save it for those very necessary moments.
Of course the Forte has very low gears too but I have no experience of that bike (who without bias has?). It's a pity that 50 Cycles made errors in publishing "sprocket teeth" when the gear is a hub gear - a bit daft. Suggests that they don't know much about bikes. Without the size of the chainwheel its pretty meaningless and then again there's the internals - what are the %age reductions, rises between gears. Not a lot of useful information there then.
You are right to take into consideration 50 Cycles monopoly on repairs and service (both under Guarantee and post guarantee). Its a return and collect operation (there are no repairers in the country who can deal with any problems, to the best of my knowledge, without involving 50Cycles) and the terms of the guarantee on their website are not very explicit about who pays for that. In fact it's difficult to get categoric answers from 50 Cycles about what the Guarantee really promises. Several owners I know can't get a reply to their communications on the subject. In USA Nycewheels (who are one of the two stateside suppliers/concessionaires) publish the eZee Cycle guarantee (presumably the manufacturer's in China) as: 5 years on the Frame: 1 years Parts and Repair: 1 YEAR ON THE BATTERY.
My battery died after 7 months and a mere 80 miles (it had little use in the winter) - the battery guarantee I learned (only then) was only 6 months.
To do 23 miles each way you will need at LEAST two batteries. Although I got 28 miles out of mine at the beginning that was on the 15.5mph limited mode. There is quite a steep loss of capacity with Lithium batteries. 20 % in the first year/500 recharge cycles according to the 50Cycles website. Could be as much as 30% according to our excellent Forum Guru "Flecc" . Because I had bought the battery more than six months before its demise (notwithstanding the technical detail of a normal life of 500 recharge cycles which equate to about 9000 miles), I got no sympathetic hearing form 50Cycles.
You'll be pushing it to get 15 miles in the derestricted mode (if you want to get there in 1 hour - which is doubtful anyway).
You'll be flushing out the coppers looking for an easy target.

I have a feeling (only) that unless there is some REMARKABLE improvement in e-bike technology which I have not heard mentioned on this Forum there is not a bike that will do what you desire: 23 miles in the hour. Forget the 2006 Tour de Presteigne, that was a race really: and the 'test' was on closed roads and 23mph on a 'pedelec' was not illegal there.

Have you considered inclement weather, punctures and other inherent problems in travelling 46 miles a day/everyday on an e-bike? That could be tough in the Summer never mind the Winter.
Peter

PS excuse all e-mail induced spelling errors - I've re-read it until I'm crosseyed.

Baboonking · May 12, 2007

ITSPETEINIT said:
I have a feeling (only) that unless there is some REMARKABLE improvement in e-bike technology which I have not heard mentioned on this Forum there is not a bike that will do what you desire: 23 miles in the hour.

Hi Peter,

No techical barriers, only legal ones!
My bike will do 23 miles in an hour

(http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/53-show-us-your-bike.html#post311)

Sorry to hear about your battery experience sounds really unfair. I don't see why ezee don't offer at least a 1 year guarantee.

flecc · May 12, 2007

My Torq experience aligns with Ian's, so a Torq cannot meet what you require, nor can any other UK legal e-bike.

An imported BionX from the USA will be 350 watts (UK version is 250 watts) and can match the Torqs performance, but like that, it would need an extra battery for that distance at speed and would still average about 20 mph at best.

An illegal high power alternative like the Crystalite could meet your speed targets, but would use all of two batteries worth each way with them around 10 Ah. That might not last long though, for battery capacity declines over time. With NiMh the capacity rises slightly to about the 100th charge and then declines. With Li-ion they start at maximum and the capacity declines from that, typically losing around 30 to 35% per annum of the capacity at the start of each year. So with the Crystallite you might end up needing a third batteries each way.

Being realistic, it will be impossible to avoid two batteries always whether restricted or not, so if you accept that and aim for a journey time of around 1 hour 10 minutes, that's possible.
.

ITSPETEINIT · May 12, 2007

Batteries are the bugbear.

Baboonking said:
Hi Peter,

No techical barriers, only legal ones!
My bike will do 23 miles in an hour (http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/53-show-us-your-bike.html#post311)

Sorry to hear about your battery experience sounds really unfair. I don't see why ezee don't offer at least a 1 year guarantee.

Yes, I agree. Technically there are a few bikes that will do 23mph+ (e.g the Heinzmann High Speed) and a few of us can manage that for a full hour. You don't say how much you weigh or your fitness level Baboonking. Steven weighs, like me, 200 lbs and that takes a lot of watts to shift around.
It seems to be the general mood on this subject for Steven that 23 miles in the hour is very optimistic and day after day too - he might need logistical support like the Tour de France.

Thank you for your commisserations re. the battery problem. I am having to work very hard to get a change of heart up there in Loughgborough. Actually that will be impossible unless I can get them to answer the correspondence I sent which has received one dismissive reply and that was off subject.
I took the opportunity to e-mail eZee Cycles (Mr. Ching). His reply was somewhat contradictory on the subject of Batteries - see for yourselves:

from Mr. Ching:
4) Our guarantee for the battery is 6 months up to 80% DOD (depth of discharge) or capacity.
Battery could be subject to abuse, such as deep discharge that means customer always discharge his battery empty very frequently, and etc.
The more you charge the battery the better, and don´t take it to empty.
(Me):How many deep discharges can one manage in 80 miles around my home in the country over 7 months - 4 months of actual use?

The Owner's Manual:
11. Low Voltage Protection: To prevent the battery from deep discharge that will irreversibly damage the battery, the power will cut of when it reached a certain low voltage protection. When you see that the battery level indicator shows the yellow/orange warning light it is necessary to charge your battery again. When the minimum battery level is reached the electric motor will not function smoothly.
(Me):I don't know what yellow/orange light he is referring to. Must be the one on the handlebars if one it to make the judgemnet whilst riding. Flecc tells us (I'm going to be corrected here I expect) that these lights on the dashboard have little to do with the state of discharge (Used) of the battery - more that they show the power being drawn from the battery at that moment. Of course if the battery is in a low state of charge the red will come on sooner that if not under load, but returns to yellow or even green when the load on the battery is reduced.

Section 5 Battery Charging Operations:
NEW BATTERY NEEDS TO BE CONDITIONED WITH 2 OR 3 FULL DISCHARGES AND CHARGE CYCLES BEFORE IT COME TO THE FULL CAPACITY.

You are right Baboonking. 6 months guarantee on a battery costing £250 and stated to have 500 recharge cycles (that's about 8 or 9000 miles on modest range per charge) before reaching 80% capacity (see 50Cycles website) is paltry and feeble - and that's ignoring anything else that goes wrong in it's short life.
In America, Nycewheels give a 12 month guarantee on batteries (and 5 years on the frame). Sounds more realistic. Car Batteries have longer, much longer guarantees. I know there are different circumstances. If it is because Lithium Batteries are "New technology (for electric bicycles)" why are we customers used as Guinea Pigs to prove the product?
Peter

Ian · May 12, 2007

Peter, while the life of your battery was particlarly short I do know of other examples of lithium batteries failing within a year, and my experiences of short lives with them in laptops, a camcorder and a portable DVD player really do make me believe that lithium is not the way to go. I intend to do whatever it takes to stick with NiMh for as long as is possible. I agree with you that a six month guarantee is not satisfactory, especially when it was not made clear at the outset that the 1 year on the bike doesn't cover the battery, I've been looking at other suppliers guarantees but most make no mention of any warranty whatsoever, Powacyle do state clearly that their batteries are guaranteed for 6 months, it's quite possible that your experiences would be similar with other suppliers as it seems they are covering themselves against an un-proven product.

I wonder how many Toyota Prius owners are aware of the lifespan and cost of their much larger lithium batteries.

flecc · May 12, 2007

This situation is reminiscent of the old TV warranty for one year with tube and valves just 3 months.

The Prius battery "shock to come" is like that of the Peugeot 207 electric car of a while ago, an NiMh battery change four yearly (if you were lucky) costing £4000, more than the car was worth at that age.
.

flecc · May 13, 2007

Congratulations on your new bike Steven, I wish you many hours of happy cycling. You should find the Li-ion battery a little faster and with longer range, but the NiMh is better at withstanding abuse, long full throttle hills etc., and also longer lived.

To get the best out of each type, the Li-ions should be recharged at every opportunity as they don't like being fully discharged, the less use before a charge the better.

Conversely, the NiMh should be fully discharged from time to time, about every 5 to 10 charges or so, it's not critical, as this gives them the longest life. Discharging out completely is easy if you have a second battery with you to swap to of course.
.

Ian · May 13, 2007

Good luck with the bike Steven, had a look at your route on MS Virtual Earth, it looks a pleasant ride with no gradients outside of the Torqs capabilities.

In case you're wondering what all the references to restrictions and legal limits mean, here in the UK we have a nanny state that places strict limits on what our bikes are capable of, our version of the Torq is limited to approx 16mph but it is possible to disable the limiter, but then we can't ride on public roads

JohnInStockie · May 13, 2007

And rightly so, after all, the car culture is a part of our heritage and tradition, and we cant jepoedise that by encouraging this cycling nonsense too much can we!

Flying Kiwi · May 13, 2007

High charges

flecc said:
The Prius battery "shock to come" is like that of the Peugeot 207 electric car of a while ago, an NiMh battery change four yearly (if you were lucky) costing £4000, more than the car was worth at that age.
.

Maybe thats why GM only leased the EV1 (as in the interesting documentary "Who killed the electric car" Sony Pictures Classics Presents : Who Killed the Electric Car? ) to drivers in California rather than making it available to buy outright. I'd like to know how much money can be made from recycling the old NiMHs to make new ones, after all the precious metals are still in there for extraction. Only problem is if the process is in anyway like aluminium smelting, a large part of the cost would be in the electricity used in the process. I see the latest Peugeot 207 'Epure' concept now comes with a Lithium Ion battery as well as a Fuel Cell - no doubt even more expensive than above!

I'd like to see manufacturers of e-bikes forging closer relationships with their battery suppliers with regards to recycling of used batteries. A positive step is a discount on the price of a replacement battery if the old one is traded in. I'm aware that at least one supplier currently offers this and I hope they all eventually will.

flecc · May 13, 2007

Flying Kiwi said:
Maybe thats why GM only leased the EV1 (as in the interesting documentary "Who killed the electric car" Sony Pictures Classics Presents : Who Killed the Electric Car? ) to drivers in California rather than making it available to buy outright. I'd like to know how much money can be made from recycling the old NiMHs to make new ones, after all the precious metals are still in there for extraction. Only problem is if the process is in anyway like aluminium smelting, a large part of the cost would be in the electricity used in the process. I see the latest Peugeot 207 'Epure' concept now comes with a Lithium Ion battery as well as a Fuel Cell - no doubt even more expensive than above!

I'd like to see manufacturers of e-bikes forging closer relationships with their battery suppliers with regards to recycling of used batteries. A positive step is a discount on the price of a replacement battery if the old one is traded in. I'm aware that at least one supplier currently offers this and I hope they all eventually will.

Absolutely right Kiwi, if only the US citizenry had taken to the EV1 in large enough numbers and the French likewise with the Peugeot electric, effective recycling could have easily been set up. As you've said previously though, far sighted investment in such provisions first is the real answer.

Again I think the lack of e-bike battery recycling is a matter of quantity. Powabyke who do it have been long established and claim to have sold the most, probably true.
.

Ian · May 13, 2007

Conspiracy Theories

Flying Kiwi said:
"Who killed the electric car" Sony Pictures Classics Presents : Who Killed the Electric Car? )

A very interesting article Kiwi, it'll take more some time to look at it properly but one thing I did notice was the bit about Texaco buying the controlling shareholding in the company that developed NiMh, and then trying to stop other manufacturers producing cells. It seems that wasn't a total success but one can't help but wonder if the current nickel situation is the result of a conspiracy.

As for recycling, I take used batteries of all types to the local tip and am directed to put them them in the battery skip, which usually only has car batteries in it. I often wonder what then happens as I suspect the recycling process is designed for car batteries.

Baboonking · May 13, 2007

. 6 months guarantee on a battery costing £250 and stated to have 500 recharge cycles (that's about 8 or 9000 miles on modest range per charge) before reaching 80% capacity (see 50Cycles website) is paltry and feeble - and that's ignoring anything else that goes wrong in it's short life.

500 cycles at 80% (dod) is a normal rating for lithium batteries. 33% capacity loss in the first year definatley isn't. I've not seen any data on this kind of lithium chemistry(maganese). The only information is the reports from you and Flecc on this forum and also a brief mention on the 'battery university' site that simply says they do suffer from calender aging and offers no specifics.

Don't worry about the low cutoff voltage on the bike. They are designed to be foolproof so its not something a rider can influence by looking at the different lights.

If it is because Lithium Batteries are "New technology (for electric bicycles)" why are we customers used as Guinea Pigs to prove the product?
Peter

I think thats true and thus the warranty is unfair. I read the 50 cycles warranty and extended warranty and the battery excusion is buried in the small print. This kind of chicanery seems slightly odd behaviour when contrasted with all the reports on this forum of excellent customer service.

Baboonking · May 13, 2007

flecc said:
This situation is reminiscent of the old TV warranty for one year with tube and valves just 3 months.

The Prius battery "shock to come" is like that of the Peugeot 207 electric car of a while ago, an NiMh battery change four yearly (if you were lucky) costing £4000, more than the car was worth at that age.
.

Interestingly, I've heard it was for this reason that Toyota specifically limited the state of charge on the their nimh battery pack to between 30-70%. I think they had good data showing that the pack doesn't age in these conditions. As far as I know they been proved right, at least compared to the French. I can't remember if it was nicd or nimh in the French EV's. Certainly seen a few on ebay with 10 mile range or less advertised.

I've heard the original ovonic nimh cells used in the california EV's used an ingenious algorithm in their battery management system based on invdividual cell voltage and measuring the amount discharge. Their are some reports of the remaining california electric cars having done 200000 miles with no loss in capacity.

flecc · May 13, 2007

Baboonking said:
500 cycles at 80% (dod) is a normal rating for lithium batteries. 33% capacity loss in the first year definatley isn't. I've not seen any data on this kind of lithium chemistry(maganese). The only information is the reports from you and Flecc on this forum and also a brief mention on the 'battery university' site that simply says they do suffer from calender aging and offers no specifics.

Not the only information Baboonking. A to B have the longest experience of Li-ion on the road and found a loss of 35% at just under a year old. Therefore this definitely is a known occurrence and my near ten months experience of three of these batteries hasn't given any confidence of better.

You may not be aware that Li-ions have been in use for many years in satellite powering where they supply energy during the dark phases when sunlight isn't available, with recharging when back in sunlight. To make them last for that application they have to be grossly over specified in capacity, so that only about one seventh of a charge is used in each cycle. In that way they can be capable of quite long life. That's why the recommendation to recharge every trip on our bikes.

If we only used one seventh of a charge to make these last a very long time, say 3 miles each trip, we'd only get a total of about 1500 miles from each battery at your stated life! Many commuters would use that up in about eleven weeks!

I have every confidence in NiMh though, a thoroughly proven technology.
.

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