Cyclamatic: The Beastamatic is dead! Long live the Beastamatic

[Deleted member 4366]

So would that be an opportunity to fit another 7 cell pack and push it out to 12.8AH? Or even fit one or two extra cells per pack to push up the voltage? To make a half-beast a matic sort of thing.

That's what I was thinking. The problem is that cells this size are hard to come by. They're not a common size. I did a search for them, but couldn't find any from a small quantity supplier. Upping the voltage is not so easy. You'd need to fit 15 more cells and a 36v BMS, which is still cheaper than buying a 36v battery if you could get the cells, but not by much. I think it would be better to buy a ready-made 36v battery and sell the 24v one. 14 extra cells would get you 14aH at 24v. That's a lot easier to do because there's no need to change the BMS.

 

[electric_avenue]

That's what I was thinking. The problem is that cells this size are hard to come by. They're not a common size. I did a search for them, but couldn't find any from a small quantity supplier. Upping the voltage is not so easy. You'd need to fit 15 more cells and a 36v BMS, which is still cheaper than buying a 36v battery if you could get the cells, but not by much. I think it would be better to buy a ready-made 36v battery and sell the 24v one. 14 extra cells would get you 14aH at 24v. That's a lot easier to do because there's no need to change the BMS.

Why do we have to step from 24 to 36v, is it not possible to go 30v?
and would it be possible to split a pack like this to get some cheapish cells to do the job?

 

[NRG]

Are those he sells on ebay.uk all programmable via usb as I can't find one that says it specifically?

Not sure if they are all programable but you can always ask him first On the ones that are you need to add the serial port yourself and Keywin can sell you the cable to go with it. The Parameter Designer s/w is free and can be downloaded from ES. I've discussed this before in my Peugeot build and Alien modification threads.....

 

[NRG]

Think I might get one from this seller too. Seems to have a much better reputation than BMSBATTERY.

They come with pedal sensor, you just need to ask Keywin to make sure. Also these controllers ship from a location near Heathrow, should be with you in 5 working days instead of 6 weeks!

 

[fishingpaul]

Why do we have to step from 24 to 36v, is it not possible to go 30v?
and would it be possible to split a pack like this to get some cheapish cells to do the job?

The reason for jumping from 24v to 36v and from 36v to 48volts,is probably down to available chargers and bms systems which all come in multiples of twelve.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Why do we have to step from 24 to 36v, is it not possible to go 30v?
and would it be possible to split a pack like this to get some cheapish cells to do the job?

You can have nearly any voltage you want except that lithium batteries go in steps of 3,3, 3.6 or 3.7 depending on the technology as long as you can find a suitable charger. BMSs are normally nominally 24, 36 and 48v, so, if you want plug-and-play, then you have to stick with those values.

The batteries in your link are lipos and have a different type of cell. I use exactly those ones in 10 cells to make 37v and 12 for 44.4v. You need a lipo charger to use them and a way of monitoring the cell voltage when in use.

 

[alban]

They come with pedal sensor, you just need to ask Keywin to make sure. Also these controllers ship from a location near Heathrow, should be with you in 5 working days instead of 6 weeks!

I asked e-crazyman. All the brushless controllers are programmable apparently.
e-crazyman
Seems you have to order sensorless or not - will not pick it up automatically like some of the BMSBattery ones?

 

[NRG]

Excellent! They are supposed to be universal voltage as well now having dumped the voltage regulator in favour of a small SMPS...

 

[alban]

I'll measure the batt amps draw as you suggest and get to about 16A with solder - I think I have near that now anyway.

I can't find Multimeter test leads that have a rating >10A, in fact 2A seems usual. Is this a problem with testing the possible battery current draw of 10-25A? I was going to leave it connected by croc clips and then check it in memory after I'd gunned the throttle with brake. Sorry to require such hand-holding but electronics is a new game for me!

 

[Fordulike]

I asked e-crazyman. All the brushless controllers are programmable apparently.
e-crazyman
Seems you have to order sensorless or not - will not pick it up automatically like some of the BMSBattery ones?

One Crazybloke 36v sensorless controller on the way.

The beast may rise again

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I can't find Multimeter test leads that have a rating >10A, in fact 2A seems usual. Is this a problem with testing the possible battery current draw of 10-25A? I was going to leave it connected by croc clips and then check it in memory after I'd gunned the throttle with brake. Sorry to require such hand-holding but electronics is a new game for me!

Not many of the multimeters can handle large current. You need one with a shunt in it, and even then you'll probably have to use thicker leads. I use a wattmeter that goes between the battery and controller and it shows the current in real time. I modified it so that I can put it near the handlebars, so that I can see it all the time.
100A Battery Balance Voltage Power Analyzer Watt Meter | eBay

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Thanks to the generosity of Fordulike, I'm now able to do further developments on the Beastamatic II.
The plan is to use the case from a knackered battery to house a larger controller and a 44v battery. I have already proved that this combination works to give about 1kw without smoking the motor or the controller. I'm using a BMSbattery KU63 sensored controller mainly because I had one in my spares box. I also have a slightly larger and more powerful 350w sensorless controller, but I want to stick with the hall sensors for now for smoother running.

Last time I ran at 44v with this controller, I had about the same climbing ability as at 36v and the Cyclamatic controller with soldered shunt, so, for a bit more power, I've soldered the shunt - very easy to do with the KU63 because the shunt is at the end, as if it's put there ready for soldering.
Before:

After:

I unscrewed the bottom battery plate from the bike and removed the battery connector to leave a nice hole. The connectors will live in the compartment where the controller was before:

The new controller easily fits in the case and there's plenty of room above for a pair of 6s lipos for 44v 5.2aH. I'll have an additional removable 10aH 36v battery for cruising at longer range. You could leave out the lipos and use the case as a very handy storage for tools, spare tube, lights (when not being used), etc. The little plastic piece that housed the actual battery connections very conveniently is removable to leave a nice rectangular hole in the bottom so that the wires can run through into the their compartment.

That's as far as I've got today. More tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Wolf in sheep's clothing: Beastamatic II

I've finished my Cclamatic (for now). I just tried it out on a 6 mile circuit that involves a 2 mile medium hill. It peaked at 1300w and was averaging about 1000w on the way up the hill. The controller now gives 27 amps. When I got home, the motor was hardly warm and I could feel a bit of warmth coming through the battery housing where the controller is. The controller's strapped tightly to the battery case so that the case acts as an additional heatsink. The 5aH lipo pack is adequate, but was suffering a bit of voltage sag under full power, so I think it would have gone a bit better if I had charged it first or used the 10aH pack. Top speed at 44v (actually 49v) is about 30mph, but acceleration is not fantastic, so takes a bit of a run-up to get there. Here it is finished now with a 250w controller soldered shunt and 44v 5aH lipo pack.

Here it is with optional 10aH 36v battery for more range:

or with additional 10.4 AH 44v lipo pack which connects in parallel to give 15.6aH at 44v for range and fun:

 

[Scottyf]

Great stuff D8veh. Really good to see pictures and how youve completed the modifications.
The 250w motor ok with those kind of levels of additional watts running through it?

Suppose as long as the gears hold up and the windings don't melt everything is good!
Good to see the size comparison between lipo and most normal 36v batteries.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Motor seems to be able to take it. Fordulike is thinking about taking his to 48v. Mine is brand new, so I don't want to take it to the limit just yet. Although it's a bit faster than my BPM, it has nothing like the pulling power and accelleration. It feels like it's over-geared. To be honest, I love my BPM to bits. Nothing that I've ever ridden comes close to its pulling power, smoothness and silence. It's just so relaxing and effortless to ride. How do you feel about yours?

 

[Scottyf]

Pretty much the same. When I swapped from a 250w to a 350 I didn't think it would be that different.
But it's worth the extra investment.

I'm back on a 20amp peak controller though. I love the fact it's very quiet which is great for stealth and finally have a setup that matched my speed of riding which is what I was after. Even better now that my commute went from 8.5miles to 10.7miles each way.
It feels like I could chuck alot more at it, more volts and amps but im really happy. Accleration could be better but you forget how much slower normal riding
Is when youve had electric for a while.

I also love the lipo batteries and although it's not as safe I enjoy knowing I can add range, or add speed as I changed the low voltage cut out on the controller to 18v so I can run 6packs of 6s batteries for a total of 30amp hr but at a mAx speed of 13mph but should get a huge range. Or 44v nominal for speed.

I've thought about getting a 100v controller but really the bpm at 44v wound for a 24inch wheel is quick enough without getting silly speeds. I think if I kept the amps down it would be ok. But again it's fast enough.

My only issue with the bpm which seems to be common is the clutch occasionally sticks. Fine when you have power but a nightmare any other time. Other than that I think it's a great, quiet still quite stealthy hub motor that's very affordable and delivers most of what you can throw at it for bicycle speeds.

 

[alban]

Great! You've pushed the envelope of what can be done to transform a low-priced ebike. I like the pictorial record as it makes it easier to imitate.

 

[morphix]

I agree the cyclamatic bikes look like great value start-out bikes for those wanting to try out electric bikes on a tight budget without committing loads of money or going down the kit build route.. they were amazing value at £399 plus the 10-20% off deals they used to do...still good value at £500 and choice of folding or regular MTB, can't be bad.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Just a quick update and an apology:
The last tests I did with the 44v lipos, it seemed quite fast but not much torque. It felt like the motor was over-geared. I was getting 1300w on my meter so I thought that I must have had some sort of efficiency problem. A couple of days later my power jumped to about 12kw, so I knew there was a problem!. The shunt had come un-soldered on my meter so the meter was giving false readings. I repaired it and tested again and it was only showing 550w with the 36v battery, which I think is a bit tame. That explains why the hill-climbing was not so good with this controller in previous tests. I have now soldered two-thirds of the shunt and I'm getting 20.5 amps at 36v, which is back to about 1kw like I had with the standard controller. It's a real beast again. Tomorrow, I'll try it with the 44v battery if I get time.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Today, I tried it with fully charged 44v lipos. With 50v showing on the meter, it made it up our test hill without pedalling. Before modification, I had to pedal with moderate effort in first gear. It will now do 32mph (51 kph), which makes it faster than a Flyer S for a fraction of the price. I tried it several times and seems to hit a wall at that speed. The only problem now is that it's too fast. As soon as you start pedalling, it gathers speed quickly and soon goes over the maximum comfortable pedalling speed of about 22mph. Even using the throttle, it's difficult to control the power. It seems to have two possibilities: 600w or 1000w, which is OK for going up hills, but the rest of the time it's between 20 and 30mph. I just did a 5 mile round trip with a 2 mile uphill return and it used about 4aH. So the range is substantially reduced.

It now appears to go very similar to the 48v one on youtube - OK if you want/need to go fast, but not so good for touring. I'd say that 36v with about 18 amps is about ideal, because it gives a huge improvement in hill-climbing and a bit more speed, but is still controllable. At 50v, it's just too frantic.

In summary: When your 24v battery gets tired, it's worth upgrading to a 36v battery, and soldering the shunt will give you a nice lift in hill-climbing - even at 24v. Unless you want the speed, it's probably better to buy a 36v bike instead (and solder the shunt).