Cyclist v bus (cyclist survives)
- Thread starter lectureral
- Start date
Blazing row Bob? Certainly not.
We do often have strong disagreements and hold to our positions, but we still have respect for each other, no enmity being involved. As you say, there has been an increasing incidence of these arguments, but as Aldby has pointed out, we have enjoyed a 50% increase in membership in the last four months so our lively forum is obviously widely enjoyed.
And our mission statement?
"Love thy neighbour" of course.
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Here (close to the border between France and Switzerland) there appears to be a local rule/complication which I worked out through trial and error:
At zebra crossings check to see whether the car approaching has French or Swiss license plates - if Swiss the car will stop and it is safe to step off the pavement - if the car is French, stay put!
I realise that this information may not be of much use to the majority of pedeleccians.
At zebra crossings check to see whether the car approaching has French or Swiss license plates - if Swiss the car will stop and it is safe to step off the pavement - if the car is French, stay put!
I realise that this information may not be of much use to the majority of pedeleccians.
Back on the subject of cycling over a zebra crossing, it's both amusing and alarming that a cyclist can cycle across a zebra crossing legally as long as they walked onto it and off it, but a driver does not have to stop for one cycling over! So they can be in the right and still be run over!
Here's the interpretation of the relevant parts of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions (1997) by TfL's corporate lawyers. (The bold accentuation is mine):
1. Cyclists should dismount when crossing zebra crossings, as they are advised in the Highway Code (Rule 64), even when approaching the zebra crossing from a shared use (pedestrian/cycle) path.
2. Cycling across a zebra crossing is not in itself unlawful, as the crossing forms part of the carriageway. However, cyclists who fail to dismount will be unlawfully riding on the footway as they enter and exit the crossing (unless the area of footway concerned is a shared footway and cycleway).
4. Precedence is only given to “pedestrians” over vehicles at zebra crossings. Vehicles are not obliged to stop to allow a cyclist who has not dismounted from his bicycle to cross at a zebra crossing.
5. As a cycle is a ‘vehicle’ and pedestrians are to be given precedence over vehicles at zebra crossings, a cyclist who has not dismounted is required to give precedence to any pedestrians using the crossing at the same time. Failure to do so would constitute an offence under s25 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
6. Should a cyclist be involved in an accident while riding over a zebra crossing:
• the fact that he has acted in contravention of Rule 64 can be presented in court as evidence that he was riding dangerously and thus guilty of an offence under s28 Road Traffic Act 1988; and
• his failure to comply with the Highway Code also makes it more likely that he would be found liable in the civil courts for any injury caused.
I think their conclusion at the end of number one above is questionable though. If it's legal to cycle on the shared use path and legal to cycle across the zebra crossing because it's part of the carriageway, any proposed offence of cycling while entering is carried out in a virtual world that has no UK dimension, so surely cannot be subject to English law?
.
Here's the interpretation of the relevant parts of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions (1997) by TfL's corporate lawyers. (The bold accentuation is mine):
1. Cyclists should dismount when crossing zebra crossings, as they are advised in the Highway Code (Rule 64), even when approaching the zebra crossing from a shared use (pedestrian/cycle) path.
2. Cycling across a zebra crossing is not in itself unlawful, as the crossing forms part of the carriageway. However, cyclists who fail to dismount will be unlawfully riding on the footway as they enter and exit the crossing (unless the area of footway concerned is a shared footway and cycleway).
4. Precedence is only given to “pedestrians” over vehicles at zebra crossings. Vehicles are not obliged to stop to allow a cyclist who has not dismounted from his bicycle to cross at a zebra crossing.
5. As a cycle is a ‘vehicle’ and pedestrians are to be given precedence over vehicles at zebra crossings, a cyclist who has not dismounted is required to give precedence to any pedestrians using the crossing at the same time. Failure to do so would constitute an offence under s25 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
6. Should a cyclist be involved in an accident while riding over a zebra crossing:
• the fact that he has acted in contravention of Rule 64 can be presented in court as evidence that he was riding dangerously and thus guilty of an offence under s28 Road Traffic Act 1988; and
• his failure to comply with the Highway Code also makes it more likely that he would be found liable in the civil courts for any injury caused.
I think their conclusion at the end of number one above is questionable though. If it's legal to cycle on the shared use path and legal to cycle across the zebra crossing because it's part of the carriageway, any proposed offence of cycling while entering is carried out in a virtual world that has no UK dimension, so surely cannot be subject to English law?
.
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Without wanting to appear non-PC, given that the Chinese regulatory system seems to allow manufacturers to get away with putting poisonous chemicals in food if it saves them a few pence per unit, it would not be a huge surprise to find sub-standard motor vehicles on the Chinese roads.
Frankly, despite the debate going on about the rights and wrongs of this incident if it happened in the UK, I'd suspect many Police Officers would throw the book at both bus driver and cyclist for a lack of due care and attention, and let the courts decide on the case. After all, in this case it is the bystanders (bus passengers, other road users) who were the real uninvolved innocents put at risk.
Come, come, Bob - don't you know that internet forums are the de facto 21st century outlet for the passive-aggressive lurking in all of us?
David.
HTML:
I may be dim but I failed to see any reference to them.
It looks to me like the cyclist didnt look at all, and the driver didnt show any care at all, and all the traffic was indeed speeding.
In my view, if there is a zebra crossing there, then the onus is on the driver to expect there to be pedestrians wanting to cross, and to therefore show a degree of trepedation on the appraoch. To not show any regard for any potential pedestrians in this situation smack's of driving without due care and attention to me.
If this crossing was outside a school as so many of them are over here, you can expect children to act erratically, so isnt that why 99% of drivers would slow down and take extra care?
I agree the cyclist should have stopped and dismounted, but I have seen teenagers running faster than this onto zebra crossings without looking, and I know that doesnt mean the driver was at fault, but if they were not giving enough attention as this guy obviously wasnt...
John
In my view, if there is a zebra crossing there, then the onus is on the driver to expect there to be pedestrians wanting to cross, and to therefore show a degree of trepedation on the appraoch. To not show any regard for any potential pedestrians in this situation smack's of driving without due care and attention to me.
If this crossing was outside a school as so many of them are over here, you can expect children to act erratically, so isnt that why 99% of drivers would slow down and take extra care?
I agree the cyclist should have stopped and dismounted, but I have seen teenagers running faster than this onto zebra crossings without looking, and I know that doesnt mean the driver was at fault, but if they were not giving enough attention as this guy obviously wasnt...
John
This has been an interesting little debate to watch unfold, but it appears that nearly everyone is looking at as though it were the UK.
I have no experience of China as such (just Hong Kong, prior to the end of the lease..), however I think that a lot of these technical observations would be looked at with incredulity by the relevant locals......In India they have rules of the road (I think...) but they certainly aren't apparent when you drive there! The rule has always been if you are on the road, look out, if you encounter anything bigger than you, you're fair game..
My experience of these places has always been this:-
1 - don't get in the way of anything, unless you can reincarnate yourself.
2 - arguing afterwards is pointless (see (1) above).
3 - treat every other road user (including pedestrians, pigs, goats, dogs, elephants (especially elephants ) as potential hazards.
4 - you are safer in the hands of Osama Bin Laden than near a bus or truck, especially on a narrow track!
5 - Don't waste your breathe on the technicalities, don't trust anything moving to do only the expected, give 'em a wide berth. Arguing from your wheelchair afterwards just isn't cool!
I think we're all rather spoilt here. The rest of the world just isn't British
They don't do rules like we do, supermarket queues, fish and chips or polite discussions after the event!
Remember "The Hill Street Blues? - 'Let's be careful out there'"
Cheers, Phil
I have no experience of China as such (just Hong Kong, prior to the end of the lease..), however I think that a lot of these technical observations would be looked at with incredulity by the relevant locals......In India they have rules of the road (I think...) but they certainly aren't apparent when you drive there! The rule has always been if you are on the road, look out, if you encounter anything bigger than you, you're fair game..
My experience of these places has always been this:-
1 - don't get in the way of anything, unless you can reincarnate yourself.
2 - arguing afterwards is pointless (see (1) above).
3 - treat every other road user (including pedestrians, pigs, goats, dogs, elephants (especially elephants
) as potential hazards.4 - you are safer in the hands of Osama Bin Laden than near a bus or truck, especially on a narrow track!
5 - Don't waste your breathe on the technicalities, don't trust anything moving to do only the expected, give 'em a wide berth. Arguing from your wheelchair afterwards just isn't cool!
I think we're all rather spoilt here. The rest of the world just isn't British
They don't do rules like we do, supermarket queues, fish and chips or polite discussions after the event!
Remember "The Hill Street Blues? - 'Let's be careful out there'"
Cheers, Phil
Thirty-plus years ago, my grandfather was knocked down and killed on a pedestrian crossing. The driver was not prosecuted because he had not been exceeding the speed limit, and my grandfather had just emerged from a pub, where he had had a few.
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