Cytronex vs. Alien "Special"

[gr1mb0]

As Spring/Summer approaches, I've decided it's about time I took the plunge and bought an electric bike.

After some research, I think I've narrowed it down to these two which seem to offer similar philosophies at different price points.

My needs:
- A bike that is as close to riding a normal bike as possible when not in 'power' mode (I like to think I can use it to get fit too!) - both these bikes have reasonable weight and free wheel motors to achieve this.

- Enough power to take the strain if I run out of steam; say on a total 15-20 mile ride tops, mostly on flat-ish terrain (e.g. New Forest).

- Looks similar to a normal bike - just my personal preference.

Does anybody hae any views on these two bikes for this type of use - the question could be as simple as whether the Cyctronex merits the extra money (I assume because of the better base bike spec)?

Thanks.

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[flecc]

The Cytronex is by far the nearer to a normal road bike for at least four reasons:

Weight 17 kilos against 25 kilos for the Alien

The Nano motor in the Cytronex uniquely has zero drag when pedalling without power, the SB motor in the Alien does have the orbital gear drag, despite what some like to claim.

The Nano front motor is much lighter than the SB so doesn't have the same degree of effect on handling.

Rigid forks on the Cytronex for best handling, though some like the comfort of front suspension.

Overall they aren't in the same class, but there's no substitute for trying for oneself. With Cytronex you can try them at Winchester, but I don't know of a facility for the Alien. However, in essence apart from the battery position and longer wheelbase it's hardly different from a number of other bikes using SB motors, so trying an eZee Torq 2 for example will get you close to the right experience.
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[gr1mb0]

Thanks Flecc -- sounds like the Cytronex is the way to go.

Last related question - I have the potential to buy via the Cycle2Work scheme via my employer, but only via a Cyclescheme member.

I have found out from Cytronex that they are not part of this network because of the overhead. Does anybody know of a Cyclescheme member would be be willing to source a Cytronex, perhaps for a small fee?

 

[Patrick]

I have found out from Cytronex that they are not part of this network because of the overhead. Does anybody know of a Cyclescheme member would be be willing to source a Cytronex, perhaps for a small fee?

If you found a Cyclescheme member willing to be a middleman then it might have to be quite a big fee to cover the 10% that Cyclescheme take as commission plus something to make it worth their while.

I was looking into the feasibility of trying to persuade my work's finance department into dealing directly with Cytronex. I found examples of the paper work needed on a couple of University's websites (they seem keener on doing the work themselves then a lot of employers), I figured that if I could offer to set up the transaction myself I would have a better chance of them going along with the idea. I'll dig out the links I found tomorrow. (In the end I took the easy option an ordered a Powabyke X6 through the local bike shop.)

Patrick

 

[gr1mb0]

Thanks Patrick

Sadly, I work for a major corporation not known for their flexibility, so my expectations are not high, but it might be worth a try.

 

[Barnowl]

Gr1mb0 - I know where you're coming from. Yes I think the Cytronex would suit your requirements easily. It certainly looks like a normal bike and it does feel like one to. It feels sporty to ride and looks the part as well. The distance you state on flattish terrain would be no problem at all. The quick charge up time is a big plus as well (1.5 Hrs max).

I had the same problem last year with the cycle scheme. My company only works with Halfords and they wouldn't play so I ended up paying full cost. I don't know what these Cytronex kits are that are coming out soon but it occurred to me that you could get a decent bike on the cycle scheme and fit a Cytonex kit. See Mark/Cytronex post last Friday. It's an option I'd investigate if I was in the market for a bike this summer. Cost savings might not be that great though since you would probably only save 40% of the cost of the bike - that's probably a saving of 40% of 1/3 the cost of the total machine.

PS. It just ocurred to me that I really have no idea how much the kits will cost and I based the costs very roughly and probably unfavourably on the cost of the Cytronex 7.3fx. It may be the cost saving are much better.

 

[The Maestro]

Are you talking about the '21 speed Alien Special'?

I think that and the cytronex are very different types of ebike. Where the Cytronex is trying to be as close to a normal bike to ride as possible. It has a small battery and is not very powerful since the eletric assist is intended to be used sparingly on this bike. The Alien on the other hand is more suitable if you are looking for a powerful assist most of the time although the 21 speed is a good feature if you are planning on unassisted pedalling although its a quite a bit heavier bike.

Some claim that the motor on the Cytronex has better freewheel capabilities and less drag than the Bafang motor on the Alien. This maybe true but I've seen a video on youtube where someone spins the Cytronex motor up to 15 mph and then cuts the power. It carries on spinning for 60 seconds without power and this is supposed to be impressive. I can spin the Suzhou Bafang equipped wheel on my bike fairly lightly BY HAND and it will carry on spinning for over 3 minutes. So I really think if they have drag its minimal. Maybe they begin to drag at higher speeds though I don't know.

The Alien Special is also a bit of a mystery to me, he is claiming an actual 20 mph top assisted speed. Normally the set up Alien and others use will give assistance up to about 18.5 so I don't know how hes managed this. Maybe its a higher geared motor which might compromise the hill climbing slightly over the standard set up.

 

[flecc]

Some claim that the motor on the Cytronex has better freewheel capabilities and less drag than the Bafang motor on the Alien. This maybe true but I've seen a video on youtube where someone spins the Cytronex motor up to 15 mph and then cuts the power. It carries on spinning for 60 seconds without power and this is supposed to be impressive. I can spin the Suzhou Bafang equipped wheel on my bike fairly lightly BY HAND and it will carry on spinning for over 3 minutes. So I really think if they have drag its minimal. Maybe they begin to drag at higher speeds though I don't know.

This argument repeatedly crops up. It's not a claim about the Nano motor, it's fact that it has no positive drive connection from the wheel on the overrun. In other words the wheel behaves exactly like that on a normal bike

By contrast on the SB motor and others of it's type, the nylon orbital gears are permanently engaged and rotate on the overrun with all the normal losses of a three cog orbital gear and rack. The freewheel is between the motor and the orbital gears so only the motor is disengaged on the overrun.

Spin by hand tests and the like are meaningless, and the difference in flywheel effect can account for different free spin times. It's on the road at speed where the difference shows, and the SB motor can be tiring to pedal without power for any length of time due to the drag and that drag also increases markedly with speed. I own two SB motored bikes and have ridden a few others so I'm very familiar with their characteristics. You can see the permanently engaged gearwheels and hubshell rack below:

 

[Barnowl]

Some claim that the motor on the Cytronex has better freewheel capabilities and less drag than the Bafang motor on the Alien. This maybe true but I've seen a video on youtube where someone spins the Cytronex motor up to 15 mph and then cuts the power. It carries on spinning for 60 seconds without power and this is supposed to be impressive. I can spin the Suzhou Bafang equipped wheel on my bike fairly lightly BY HAND and it will carry on spinning for over 3 minutes. So I really think if they have drag its minimal. Maybe they begin to drag at higher speeds though I don't know.

If you lift up the wheel and spin it unloaded it won’t spin as long as a normal bicycle hub, partly because of the weight of the motor. However when running on the road with a rider the difference is supposed to be negligible. Subjectively when riding the bike I can't tell the difference. I'm not sure how valid a test holding the wheel of the ground and spinning it really is.

The Cytronex Trek is 175RPM and quite good at climbing hills and battling into headwinds when required. There is a 190RPM wheel they sell for off road that is faster and probably better suited to flatter terrains. Again I'm not sure what the kit offering will be.

Flecc gets in first with the right answer yet again.

 

[gr1mb0]

Wow - thanks for all the input. It does seem like the Cytronex has the best freewheel/real bike feel.

I shall try and arrange a test ride to see how close to a normal bike it is.

Also, although it is in a different price bracket, I live quite close to the Wisper outlet (Sammy Miller museum?) - if I test rode this, would it have the non-freewheel type hub motor that would show me what resistance I'd get?

 

[flecc]

Wow - thanks for all the input. It does seem like the Cytronex has the best freewheel/real bike feel.

I shall try and arrange a test ride to see how close to a normal bike it is.

Also, although it is in a different price bracket, I live quite close to the Wisper outlet (Sammy Miller museum?) - if I test rode this, would it have the non-freewheel type hub motor that would show me what resistance I'd get?

Yes it would to a degree, though the Wisper 905se has been optimised in it's whole design for lowest drag, this objective being part of it's program of design improvements over the original 905. Therefore it's one of the best of it's type for low drag, but the Cytronex still outclasses it for cycling without motor assist. After pedalling both without motor help you'll immediately know the difference.
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[The Maestro]

Spin by hand tests and the like are meaningless, and the difference in flywheel effect can account for different free spin times. It's on the road at speed where the difference shows, and the SB motor can be tiring to pedal without power for any length of time due to the drag and that drag also increases markedly with speed.

Ok, I thought that the spin test was probably a decent one and I was basing my opinion on that. Subjectively I do find the SB motor drags at speed as I've mentioned before but because it seems to spin very freely by hand I thought I was imagining it

PS Why do you say the Wisper is set up for low drag when it also uses an SB motor I thought?

 

[flecc]

Ok, I thought that the spin test was probably a decent one and I was basing my opinion on that. Subjectively I do find the SB motor drags at speed as I've mentioned before but because it seems to spin very freely by hand I thought I was imagining it

PS Why do you say the Wisper is set up for low drag when it also uses an SB motor I thought?

The overall drag is affected by a number of things other than the motor of course, bearing specifications and tyres for example, and other things like crank lengths and gearing ratios can be set up to improve the drag perception as well.

On the motor side, the degree of drag of the orbital gears depends on the gearing ratio amongst other things. The higher the output gearing, the lower the reverse gearing and therefore the drag when the wheel is driving the gears. Since the Wisper motor gearing is for a speed substantially over the legal limit, it has the overrun drag advantage over one set for that limit only, though that does have a cost in hill climbing of course.
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[Patrick]

DIY Cycle2Work

Here are the links to Loughborough and Edinburgh University's Cycle2Work pages, complete with hire agreements for you to plagiarise.

University of Edinburgh Transport Office - Bicycles+

Estates Services - GetOnYerBike

As far as I was able to work out the DIY approach to Cycle2Work would go like this:

1 - You grovel to your finance department, begging them to forsake the evil clutches of CycleScheme and deal directly with Cytronex for this particular purchase.

2- Once the finance director has accepted your backhander and grudgingly given his approval to your little venture you place your order with Cytronex and get them to invoice your employer.

3 – You sign a hire agreement in blood under the light of a full moon and give it to your employer.

4 – You badger the finance department into paying the invoice.

5 – You collect your shiny new Cytronex bike.

It’s a bit convoluted because although it’s you who chooses and collects the bike it’s your employers who buy and own it. Your employers then hires the bike out to you for (typically) 12 months, at the end of that time your employers can sell the bike. The unspoken agreement is that they will sell the bike to you at 5% or its cost, but they can’t promise that because then it would become a hire purchase agreement which would not be eligible for the tax break.

Patrick