Dalston fatal e-bike crash rider 'going too fast' - Court Case

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,311
At the moment he is not charged with careless driving so he can't be found guilty of that in this court case. If found not guilty of the three offences he is charged with then lesser charges will presumably be brought.

Darren
He is charged with death by careless driving.

As Grahame says, all the prosecution has to prove is he caused the death and his driving was careless, defined as a momentary lapse of attention, or riding below the standard of a careful and competent rider.

For the purpose of this court case, the legality or otherwise of the ebike is largely irrelevant.

His alleged high speed is relevant because that goes to prove careless.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LeighPing

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,476
16,421
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
For the purpose of this court case, the legality or otherwise of the ebike is largely irrelevant.
this may be semantics but is it true that:

- careless driving: applies to motor vehicles
- furious riding: applies to bikes

his bike seems to be classified as a motor vehicle, so at this level, the determination has an effect on his case.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
77
Of Course, if he had hit the 'jaywalking' lady whilst driving a car then it might not have even made the news. Or if he was a lycra wearing guy on a road bike. After all, she was clearly in the wrong. But it had to be an over powered ebike!
I personally find your reaction to this case, when it has still not been fully played out, to be rather strange.....
I assume, maybe completely wrongly, that you feel/give the impression, that its OK to hit somebody while riding on an illegal tuned e-bike, ridden at possibly twice the legal limit for such bikes, the victim who subsequently dies, because (your words) if a car had hit the victim, it would sort of be OK......
May I ask, why your reaction is so out of line with British laws?
As it would appear that the bike was illegally tuned, and the victim subsequently died.
But if a car had hit her, the driver would be also put before a court, his car examined in depth, and things like worn brakes, bad steering and bald or damaged tyres for example, would count heavily against the driver, as would be possible proof that was driving too fast for the state of his car and the conditions at the time,apparently noticed by witnesses, who spoke under oath.
I myself do not see any difference for anyone driving/riding illegally, and injuring someone.
For example, a pedestrian, completely unaware that illegal e-bikes can go so fast AND SO QUIETLY, she may not even have noticed that it even was an e-bike, but she may not expect any bike to be traveling at such a speed.....
Any driver/rider must take this into account, as people may suddenly cross the road, without due care and attention!
THAT IS THE JOB OF A DRIVER/RIDER WHEN ON THE ROAD.
I also feel that your attitude, and the attitude of a small number of riders, gives our hobby a really bad name.
For example, in 1966, I was driving my Hillman Imp, late at night, on the roads inside HMS Collingwood, in Fareham, Hants., well under the legal limit on base of 25 MPH (far less apparently than this e-bike rider), I saw two men, walking in the middle of the road, so I flashed my headlights and they separated left and right.
I went to drive between them, and the one on the left suddenly walked directly in front of my car. My left front wing caught him at the back of his right thigh.
The shore patrol that attended the accident, measured the skid marks and as it was a dry night, my car was in a good condition with regards brakes, steering and tyres, it was calculated that I had hit him with a maximum speed of around 12 MPH!
It broke his right thigh bone, and sent him up in the air like a crazy fast ballet dancer, his arms flailing out on either side. I will never, ever forget it.....
It was SO fast, that he unintentionally, as I continued past him whilst doing an emergency stop, that his twirling arms, the knuckles hit the passenger door, leaving distinct impressions of 3 knuckles in the metal!
Demonstrating clearly the HUGE amount of energy that was transferred into his body, even at just 12MPH, from my car!
Once he was off the danger list, I visited him in HMS Haslar, the Royal Navy's Hospital (then) in the Portsmouth area, and I asked him why he did it.
Firstly, he had had a few pints, though in the seconds before the accident, he was walking apparently normally to me, he said he had simply forgot that I was coming along, and wanted to say something to his mate......
He even apologized to me as well!
He made a statement to the effect, that was read out at my "visit" to the Captain's Table, to answer any and all charges.
All of which I was subsequently cleared of....
But do notice, that I still had to answer the charges, to make quite certain that I was not guilty!
Also, I have never ever forgotten to this day, that accident. It was horrific for all concerned, and he spent 4 months or so, both in hospital and on light duties till he leg had mended...
May I ask you, that in the future you try and avoid pedestrians, who though still not on the road, are possibly totally uninformed of your silent approach on an e-bike, maybe even due to their own stupidity possibly, as in my case.
BUT YOU STILL FEEL TERRIBLE THAT AN ACCIDENT HAS HAPPENED, even though it may not be your fault in any way!
A court will make the final decision in such cases, not the rider....
Many years ago, when leaving the RN, I took an advanced drivers course with the UK Police, free for people leaving the Royal Navy at that time, and they teach awareness of of other road users and pedestrians to a really high level. Far beyond the normal driving test.
For me it was a huge eye opener that I have never ever forgotten, and still follow today....it has allowed me up to now, to avid such pedestrians more times than I can count, and to avoid running into badly driven vehicles in front of me.
All of my accidents, in 57 years of car driving, have all been"rear-end-ers" to MY car, except for one, consisting of several bike riders (no e-bikes up to now), several cars and one big truck, caused simply by people driving too close and often too fast for the conditions.....
One idiot, who ran into my stopped car, wanted money from my insurance because I had a tow bar (mostly on all the cars I have driven!) fitted, that had damaged his car!! Bad luck mate, you not only paid for your own damage, but you had to pay for mine AND buy me a new tow bar too!!!:D:p
If still available, everyone should take the Advanced Driving Course, as you will learn a lot, no matter how long you have been driving.
Furthermore, may I remind you that the manner in which you might possibly reply to this post, will tell us all a lot about you, both possibly good and maybe not so good things.
Your personal choice of course...
But I really disagree with your recent comments about this accident, no matter who is found at fault in the end, as you may have noticed!
Regards and I wish you an accident free life
Andy
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LeighPing

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
3,668
2,673
Winchester
I assume, maybe completely wrongly, that you feel/give the impression, that its OK to hit somebody while riding on an illegal tuned e-bike, ridden at possibly twice the legal limit for such bikes, the victim who subsequently dies, because (your words) if a car had hit the victim, it would sort of be OK......
May I ask, why your reaction is so out of line with British laws?
I think he means it wouldn 't have attracted the media attention that it did as it wouldn't have been that unusual; not that it would be OK.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LeighPing

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,476
16,421
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
possible consequences of derestricting your bike:

- punishment for careless driving causing injuries or death: 5 years in prison, unlimited fines.
- punishment for furious riding causing injuries or death: 2 years in prison (section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act which dates from 1861).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LeighPing

Andy McNish

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 28, 2018
303
203
I have to say, having seen the video, that, for a moped, the vehicle didn't seem to be driven particularly aggressively.

He was in the middle of the road, not near the edge, there were no other pedestrians in it, so no particular reason for him to slow down/anticipate an issue and she just walked out several meters quite briskly without looking.

He also had flashing lights on his vehicle so she would have been able to see it at a glance.

Careless driving is a lesser offence than reckless of course and if he was 10mph over a 20mph general limit then he might well get found guilty, but it's not as egregious as I'd imagined before seeing the footage.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LeighPing

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,792
30,369
- punishment for furious riding causing injuries or death: 2 years in prison (section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act which dates from 1861).
And in our country with its out of date infrastructure, likely to be served in an 1861 prison! :(
.
 
  • :D
Reactions: LeighPing and Woosh

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,112
8,219
60
West Sx RH
And guns don't provide assistance above 15.5mph.
No you are right, the gun assistance is the speed of sound or over 767mph.
 
  • Like
  • :D
Reactions: LeighPing and flecc

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,311
this may be semantics but is it true that:

- careless driving: applies to motor vehicles
- furious riding: applies to bikes

his bike seems to be classified as a motor vehicle, so at this level, the determination has an effect on his case.
The only determination is that he drove a 'mechanically propelled vehicle'.

For this purpose mechanically propelled includes an electric motor, as it would for an electric or hybrid car.

The legality of the vehicle is irrelevant for the purpose of proving death by careless.

Here's the wording of the charge: "You drove a mechanically propelled vehicle in circumstances that were careless, and that driving caused the death of...."

Thus there is only two things to be proved, he caused the death by his careless driving, and he was driving a mechanically propelled vehicle.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LeighPing

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,476
16,421
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Thus there is only two things to be proved, he caused the death by his careless driving, and he was driving a mechanically propelled vehicle.
the wording merely confirms the status that his bike is considered a moped.
If his bike was speed limited, he may have been charged with careless riding instead of careless driving. Careless riding (or furious riding) carries a lesser range of penalty and not unlimited fines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sjpt

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,311
the wording merely confirms the status that his bike is considered a moped.
If his bike was speed limited, he may have been charged with careless riding instead of careless driving. Careless riding (or furious riding) carries a lesser range of penalty and not unlimited fines.
His bike is considered a mechanically propelled vehicle, because that's all it needs to be.

As he killed someone, it was always going to be one of the death by charges.

If he killed someone on a legal ebike it would still have been death by careless - if charged.

You might think someone trundling along on a legal ebike at 12mph has a good defence to the allegation of careless, even if they killed someone.

It's still not guilty because both limbs of the charge must be proved.

We no longer expect motorised vehicles to be preceded by a man with a red flag.

In other words, the law accepts that you will be going too fast, but still driving with appropriate care, to stop on a sixpence if someone steps out in front of your vehicle.

The charging judgment in this case is he was driving carelessly because he was going too fast for the conditions.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LeighPing

Steve Bowles

Pedelecer
Mar 23, 2018
160
64
74
St Leonards, England
He was wrong for having a bike that could reach speed in excess of 15mph; he was wrong for not showing due diligence while riding at speed in an area with pedestrians; he was wrong for leaving the scene of the accident where a dead body laid in the street. He is wrong for blaming her. He's guilty. Hang him.
 

Grahame Robertson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Oct 28, 2018
7
7
73
At the moment he is not charged with careless driving so he can't be found guilty of that in this court case. If found not guilty of the three offences he is charged with then lesser charges will presumably be brought.

Darren
Acording to the OP the charge is Causing Death by Careless Driving (4th paragraph). Having looked a little more at the law, apparently the speed limit does not apply to unassisted vehicles, only motorised vehicles so the prosecution's tactic of firstly proving that his vehicle was motorised, then charging him with Causing Death by Careless Driving does make sense.
We obviously don't have all of the relevant information but a salutory lesson here that modifying an ebike to increase assisted speed will bring you into the legal framework of motorised vehicles.
In any case my sympathies are reserved for Mrs Cihan and her family and loved ones.
 

Steve Bowles

Pedelecer
Mar 23, 2018
160
64
74
St Leonards, England
Acording to the OP the charge is Causing Death by Careless Driving (4th paragraph). Having looked a little more at the law, apparently the speed limit does not apply to unassisted vehicles, only motorised vehicles so the prosecution's tactic of firstly proving that his vehicle was motorised, then charging him with Causing Death by Careless Driving does make sense.
We obviously don't have all of the relevant information but a salutory lesson here that modifying an ebike to increase assisted speed will bring you into the legal framework of motorised vehicles.
In any case my sympathies are reserved for Mrs Cihan and her family and loved ones.
The U.K. is relying on 19th century laws to prosecute 21st century crimes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LeighPing

Andy McNish

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 28, 2018
303
203
He was wrong for having a bike that could reach speed in excess of 15mph; he was wrong for not showing due diligence while riding at speed in an area with pedestrians; he was wrong for leaving the scene of the accident where a dead body laid in the street. He is wrong for blaming her. He's guilty. Hang him.
I think that is a little sweeping.
He was in the wrong driving an e-moped without registration, but bikes can and do go faster then 15mph on commutes.
Whether or not he lacked due diligence is an open question, especially now we've seen the video.
He is absolutely wrong for leaving the scene and should have the book thrown at him for that.
Looking at the video she is at significant fault. She has walked right across a busy road without looking. Obviously she didn't 'deserve' what happened to her, but nor is she without fault.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LeighPing

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,476
16,421
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
You might think someone trundling along on a legal ebike at 12mph has a good defence to the allegation of careless, even if they killed someone.
no, I don't think that, I pointed out that the range of punishment for riding a bike is lesser than that of driving a moped, 2 years jail instead of 5 years plus unlimited fines.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
77
Court case has started...



A cyclist accused of killing a pedestrian while riding a modified e-bike was travelling more than 10mph over the speed limit, a jury heard.

Thomas Hanlon, 32, was "going way too quickly" when he hit Sakine Cihan in Kingsland High Street in Dalston, east London, the Old Bailey heard.

Mrs Cihan, 56, suffered a "catastrophic" head injury and died the next day, jurors heard.

Mr Hanlon denies causing death by careless driving.

Under the law, e-bikes which are fitted with an electric motor can only be driven without a licence or insurance if their power is limited and if the motor automatically switches off at speeds above 15.5 mph.

The court heard Mr Hanlon's bike was capable of going double that speed and as such should have been categorised as a motorbike.

'Jesus, that's fast'

Prosecutor Nathan Rasiah read out a statement by cyclist Raymond Murphy, a witness to the 28 August crash, who said he was "struck" that Mr Hanlon's bike was "going way too quickly for a normal electric bicycle".

"He described riding along approaching the station and becoming aware of a bike travelling very quickly past him, but heading in the same direction as him.

"He recalls thinking 'Jesus, that's fast'," Mr Rasiah.

A few moments later, Mr Murphy "suddenly saw arms and legs everywhere, flying in the air", the court heard.

Mr Rasiah quoted a second witness, Joshua Stubbs, as saying: "It looked like their heads made contact then the cyclist fell to the ground.

"After a few seconds the cyclist got up and looked dazed and confused, the lady lay motionless on the road."

Jurors were shown CCTV footage of Mrs Cihan stepping off the pavement and running in front of Mr Hanlon, of Queen's Drive, Leyton, east London.

The court was told Mr Hanlon left the scene despite a passer-by trying to stop him.

The jury heard that, when interviewed by the police, Mr Hanlon admitted leaving the scene but said he had no time to swerve as Mrs Cihan had crossed the road unexpectedly.

Quoting from the police interview, Mr Rasiah said: "She rushed out in front of me to cross and she didn't even look at me."

Mr Rasiah told jurors the lights at the crossing were green for traffic but he said Mr Hanlon's speed amounted to driving without due care and attention.

Both the prosecution and defence agree that Mr Hanlon did not have a licence or insurance for a motorbike.

But he denies further charges of causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed.

The court heard he is contesting these because they require a fault in the driving which contributed to Ms Cihan's death.

The case continues.
Can you or anyone here post a link for the video footage, my search argument is not finding it online.
Thanks in advance.
Andy