Devil's advocate

[verntern]

Are e-bikes worth the financial outlay and cost per mile? Or, for the technophobic, a good idea at the time, swayed by colourful publicity but possibly many bikes festering in sheds or garages because they have stopped being powered? It seems to me that the engineering of a bicycle has long been established and proven. The frame, the wheels and the gearing. A long pedigree. Judging by the number of the requests for help and advice regarding electrical and motor problems it appears that a bicycle linked to a battery powered motor is still not reliable. The technically proficient members on this forum are very detailed with, I am sure, excellent advice to other technically aware members. What is good is the patience shown by members in trying to guide technophobics in resolving what is a mysterious problem to them. For those wanting to enjoy an e-bike with some confidence surely best to buy from an established dealer with a good reputation for subsequent back-up service and preferably as near to your home as possible. Sadly, my view is that battery technology is still inadequate for long lasting motive power and that e-bikes and electric cars still have a long way to go.
Negative thinking? No, just opening a debate.

 

[flecc]

I fully agree Verntern and have often said as much in the past.

The e-bike exists and persists mainly because it's cost is often within reach, second batteries can be carried to increase range, and for some it's relatively simple to keep going, sometimes dependent on suitable advice from others.

E-cars have almost universally failed to arrive since they fail on all those measures, too dear, batteries just not good enough, not possible to maintain them with amateur knowledge, range very limited with few charging points available. Despite all the promising sounds from politicians and others, I doubt this position will change much within a decade and may well never change appreciably.

Mitsubishi's little i-ev town car which is actually available shows the true current position, it sells for a ridiculous £38,000 now, obviously a price intended to cover all the battery and other part failures owners will suffer. At least one person has actually bought one!
.

 

[Mussels]

That's easy for me to answer, the cost of my Wisper is roughly the same as 10 months of train tickets so after a year I'm quids in.

 

[lemmy]

I disagree on three counts.

First, most of the questions asked here are not on reliability but on how to customize electric bikes. Up the gearing, change the cadence etc.

Second, what reliability questions there are are generally more concerned with the cycle parts themselves than the electric drives.

Third, battery technology, while far from perfect, is now mature enough to work for an e-bike with its relatively light weight and performance requirements. My Panasonic battery takes me a minimum 30 miles and is guaranteed for two years. With a replacement cost of £400, but a tiny cost per charge I personally find that acceptable

When applied to electric cars, requiring 70mph/ 200 mile range, I agree that battery technology is not up to it yet, down to weight, £4000 and up replacement cost and lack of reliable range.

In fact, as of now, the only electric drive that is as good as necessary is the e-bike.

So on the general point, are they worth the money, I'd apply the same argument as I would to my Brompton. They do something a normal bike will not. If you need that, they are good value. If you don't, they are expensive.

 

[eddieo]

Nothing sad about it! And yep I think you are negative....... if I wait for technology to improve I will be in a box. wisper warranty is 2 years and battery £500 so that is £4.80 a week approximately.

we run two bikes, I am on my second after upgrading from a used older model. Over last 2 years have had a few warranty repairs, and about £30 on a mini brake/wheel service at LBS. I am clueless technically..... I use the bike daily, it is my preferred transport, cant think of a better way of getting around.

Obviously important to get the right bike with decent reputation and warranty. If I had bought a bike with a 6 month guarantee you can bet it would fail in week 25

i get up hills is Switzerland and Italy that I would never of dreamed of cycling up. It has brought enjoyment back to cycling and is now the main activity on our motorhome trips

"Life Is What Happens While You're Busy Planning It "

 

[Alex728]

before I got an ebike I rode an unpowered bike regularly for about 10 years, and for the last 20 years have been working in an engineering role in high tech industries (including business-critical systems for media/broadcast) and more recently IT Management.

So as well as bikes I get to see a lot of gadgets both consumer and professional and can judge how reliable or otherwise they are.

The reliability of ebikes is no worse than most other high tech items and much better than some complex systems (including many personal computers, and also high-end equipment used by broadcasters). Most of the electronic bits of an e-bike either work or they do not, and if they don't are replaced under warranty by good suppliers.

Also design flaws/teething problems with unpowered bikes (particularly expensive racers), parts shortages and customer service problems with suppliers are far from uncommon, and working on them can be as much of a challenge as e-bikes.

I find most of the complex tech threads on here are from a subset of very intelligent people who are building their own bikes or customising models and thus would encounter the bulk of the technical problems.

 

[rosjen]

Personally, the Return On Investment for me makes it a no brainier, after one month I have saved approx £160 in fuel costs - not to mention wear on the car. Another more important upside is my fitness has massively improved. I used to bike to work everyday but sadly spent the last ten years using my car without thinking too much about how unfit I was getting. When I tried to bike it to work I hated it - the wind is just a killer and over half my journey on the way home is uphill (only slight but you notice it at 15 stone)

I paid £450 for a conversion and had no knowledge of e-bikes beforehand, I am not very technical in terms volts and watts, but through this site found people and other sites that spec-ed it out for me. I honestly can't see what I could not replace myself the biggest cost is the battery which has no moving parts - so unlikely to break, everything else is relatively cheap.

My 10ah battery is good for 35 miles (meter suggest 40, but not a good idea to push it that hard) and weighs just over 2 kilos, so I would say battery technology is actually not bad. I could live with half the size for a normal commute.

I do think that e-bikes are the way forwards for general commuters - when the real downturn hits it would be silly to use anything else.

 

[rog_london]

I think an e-bike isn't all that complex relative to some other consumer products we seem to take for granted. I don't have any real problem with any electrical or mechanical item which comes my way because I've been an engineer all my life, but it never fails to amaze me how pervasive, for example, personal computers have become, given that they are without doubt a real pain to anyone who isn't technically competent.

How many people get pushed into owning one of those - or perhaps being owned by one of those - because unless they can get on line the world around them will no longer function properly or everything costs more if you want to do it the old fashioned way.

At least an e-bike isn't in a position to ruin your entire life if it malfunctions, and it's not susceptible to all those people who would use it to empty your bank account or otherwise compromise your status in society.

As has been said before of e-bikes - there are many 'bargains' about, but you take your chances with warranties, service, spares, etc. Spend a little more, and buy peace of mind.

I wouldn't ride a bike if it were not an e-bike - hills are just too painful, and I'm neither heavy nor especially unfit. An e-bike has been a total revelation and I don't think I'll ever get tired of it. I don't need to ride anywhere as I don't commute but it's in use most days of the week in the evening when the weather is halfway reasonable.

Rog.

 

[Alex728]

the whole bike (Wisper 905SE) is cheaper than fuel costs or bus fares to get from my home to my work - the rural buses here are a bit like that old telly series when I was a kid - the one with the two lecherous drunk bus drivers and Blakey, but with more RTC's (passengers and other road users injured, some fatal) and none of the laughs.

 

[rosjen]

a bit like that old telly series when I was a kid - the one with the two lecherous drunk bus drivers and Blakey

On the Buses! Amazing what was considered funny

 

[tangent]

I have been commuting on electric bikes for over 6 years. It has been a lot less effort than a non-electric bike and saved me at least 20 minutes per day on journey time. Compared with public transport or driving, it has been much less hassle and kept me fitter. I have saved about £6,000 in public transport costs in that period but have spent far less on bikes - probably no more than £3,000 including my brand new bike.

As for reliability, I have had no problem with bike electrics but got through lots of chains, tyres, rims, etc. as I would have done on a non-electric bike.

Absolute no-brainer for me.

 

[Vikki]

I'm quids in as well with what I've saved in not owning a car and not taking the train. In fact, my Wisper 905se City has been more reliable than any car I've had.

18 months and nearly 4,000 miles of faultless travel and still plenty of battery life left makes it an exceptionally good buy.

Best regards.

Vikki.

 

[tangent]

And one other thing I forgot to mention - electric bikes are fun!

 

[Gaynor]

I agree with the first poster as in bikes have a way to go technically.

Where I live there used to be two shops that sold bikes with a few electric bikes, I bought a 2nd hand one for £350, it was an acid led bike made by Elran, a company that had gone bust, and when i bought it the bike/battery had been in storage for 2 -3 years (I was later told) soon after I bought it problems started to occur, it was almost useless on the steep hills, unlike the next bike i bought, the Quando.
The feelining I got when i sailed past hot and swety bikers struggleing to push their bikes uphill, and the look I got from those bikers as in how can she do that? lol

Those two shops are now closed down, one had said it's too much money selling electric bikes as people have problems and bring them back and it's too costly, i think maybe things have improved somewhat since then, 2005, they certianly didnt think the Li ions would come out for many years to come, and I wonder how problemmatic it is for small bike companys when bikes need to be repaired, it does cost a lot, so yes I agree, there is a way to go in terms with bike e bike efficiency.

And one other thing I forgot to mention - electric bikes are fun!

Yes, very much so.

 

[rosjen]

I suppose it also worth mentioning that a car has approx 14,000 parts and a ebike can have less than 7 not including the actual bike which as we know is not very many. Get real doubters!

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm saving enough to have a new ebike every six months, and I love passing all my work mates on the way home, as they're all stuck in traffic! I'll never go back to a car, even in the Winter.

 

[Gaynor]

I suppose it also worth mentioning that a car has approx 14,000 parts and a ebike can have less than 7 not including the actual bike which as we know is not very many. Get real doubters!

We are not talking lego pieces here, you make it sound like no one need ever have a proble with a '7 part E bike'

How can you say an E bike has just 7 parts, what with all the wires and electrics, have you ever took an bike apart?

 

[Mussels]

We are not talking lego pieces here, you make it sound like no one need ever have a proble with a '7 part E bike'

How can you say an E bike has just 7 parts, what with all the wires and electrics, have you ever took an bike apart?

Maybe it would be more accurate to say seven (depending on bike) main components:

Controller
Battery
Motor
Pedelec sensor
Wiring loom
Throttle
Brake switches

In a car it's unlikely that someone would try and repair an indicator stalk so that counts as one component to be swapped out, it is similar on an ebike. The only repair to ebike components I have had to do is replacing worn out gears in the motor, the rest of my numerous problems have been with the normal bike bits wearing out or breaking.

 

[lemmy]

Maybe it would be more accurate to say seven (depending on bike) main components:

The Panasonic system has fewer than that as far as I can see. Handlebar controller, sealed motor unit....that's it.

50Cycles would know but I have never heard of one of these malfunctioning.

Flecc has much wider experience than me, I guess he'd know. Otherwise why does he get his £450,000 per annum plus bonuses for his Guru status

 

[Bandit]

I suspect this may be more of a problem in the UK, where the cycling isn't (if we're honest) regarded as a mode of transport by enough of the population. Leisure cycling enthusiasts have, for the most part, little use for power assistance (why would they?).

It isn't really practical to operate a bike, electric or otherwise, without engaging with some of its technicalities. For the leisure cyclist, this is part of the appeal, like mucking out ponies is for Pony Club members. For a potential user looking for a reliable mode of transport, it's just another disadvantage. And while it is broadly true that consumer maintenance of an e-bike is no more complex than consumer maintenance of an unpowered bike, either way it is a skill most of us no longer have (just as most of us don't monitor oil and coolant in our cars and hope we never have to change a wheel).

I'm an e-biker who can just about fix a puncture (though I couldn't on a hub motor wheel - certainly not "on the road") and I use my bike regularly for operational trips. I like the exercise and the fresh air, but I rarely bike for the hell of it. I live in an area very popular with leisure cyclists and encountered one last weekend who asked (at our village shop) where I had come from. He had come from hundreds of miles away, carrying his bike on his SUV, to experience our invigorating hills and scenery. When I told him that I had come from 2 miles away, he said that he would never get his bike out for a trip like that. Given how he was dressed, you could see why.