DIY Mechanical Dongle

Woosh

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If I was stopped for doing 85mph on a 70mph motorway but my speedo was reading 69mph I don't think I'd have much of a case.

Or another example, if somebody changes diff ratios or tyre sizes on their car their speedo will read incorrectly but it's still their responsibility to make sure that they don't exceed speed limits.
activating a dongle is the same as twisting the spoke magnet until it starts reading wrongly, except that the dongle has a set error percentage of 50%.
If you have a wrong speedo, it's like after you activated the dongle. If you don't activate your dongle, you are not speeding.
The situation is similar to someone going to a demonstration with a flag pole, it's legal until you poke the pole into somebody's face.
 
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ebiker99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2019
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activating a dongle is the same as twisting the spoke magnet until it starts reading wrongly, except that the dongle has a set error percentage of 50%.
If you have a wrong speedo, it's like after you activated the dongle. If you don't activate your dongle, you are not speeding.
The situation is similar to someone going to a demonstration with a flag pole, it's legal until you poke the pole into somebody's face.
You've missed my point entirely and what a flag pole has to do with ebikes is beyond me.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Just tell us the secret way to change speed limit on the bosch's, the secret will be safe on here.
The last time I told someone on the forum how to derestrict his bike, I told him that I would have to kill him if he let the secret out. Unfortunately he let it out, may he rest in peace. I can tell you the secret but I'd have to kill you first because I can't run the risk of this one getting out. All the guys that make dongles would have their lives and jobs put at risk. Think of their children.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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problem is what software version did the bike have and what display and if nothing else is required to remove the speed limit bosch would soon patch it so would no longer work.

you can either prove it and let others try it or you cant simple as that.
 
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vfr400

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If I was stopped for doing 85mph on a 70mph motorway but my speedo was reading 69mph I don't think I'd have much of a case.
Your point is valid as far as breaking the speed limit is concerned. When the police check the speed of cars, they use an independent device, like their own calibrated speedometer, VASCAR, Radar gun or whatever. They would use that evidence in a prosecution and wouldn't even be interested to see what speed your speedometer displays. None of those devices are going to prove non-compliance on an electric bike when the rider is pedalling and he's adjusted the speedometer ratio, like OP has. They can get the speed, but how will they know if the motor was running or not? They'd have to ride the bike themselves while observing the speed displayed on the bike and compare that with an independent device. That's just not going to happen. All they can really do is a static test to see that the power cuts off when the display shows 25 km/h, but I doubt that they'd even do that.

Of course, there might be a policeman that happens to be an electric bike hobbyist, who reads the forum and knows everything that we do. I can spot a derestricted bike a mile off, but how many policemen have this capability?
 
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vfr400

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You really are a chump,
OK , so now you've resorted to name calling. I can see the model of debate you're using, which follows this diagram exactly. We can see the next step. I think you've been on the Brexit thread too long, where people spout this sort of rubbish at each other all day long as if it's going to change the world.
30541
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I am not sure about this, as it has never been tested in a Court case.
Let's say I make a bike that will still work if the spoke magnet is twisted away.
Is it illegal? As far as I know, EN15194 testing has never mentioned a spoke magnet test that it cannot be removed nor twisted away.
So the spoke magnet is your on/off speed limit button.
There must be at least 10+ million EPACS in use, lots of them use a similar spoke magnet to measure the speed.
A magnet moved away from the designed and supplied condition is a modification, no matter what the cause. It's not a "button" available to the rider as supplied.

Therefore it is legal to ride the bike with the magnet in the correct position.

The paragraph below part copied from my post above defines the status for all pedelecs, the requirement for throttle type approval proving my case beyond any doubt:

"There is a direct comparison with the throttle issue. The type approval exemption does not allow the possibility of motor power without pedalling, so defeating that with a throttle loses the pedelec exemption. Ergo, if the bike is supplied with a rider control throttle already fitted, even if not used, it is not an exempt pedelec, hence it needing type approval. Equally if fitted with rider control capable of raising the assist limit to defeat that exemption condition, it loses pedelec exemption, whether used or not. "
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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OK , so now you've resorted to name calling. I can see the model of debate you're using, which follows this model exactly. We can see the next step. I think you've been on the Brexit thread too long, where people spout this sort of rubbish at each other all day long as if it's going to change the world.
View attachment 30541
None of the above, my case is proven by the post you complain of, but you just wanted to ignore that.

See the last paragraph of this post
.
 

Woosh

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"There is a direct comparison with the throttle issue. The type approval exemption does not allow the possibility of motor power without pedalling, so defeating that with a throttle loses the pedelec exemption. Ergo, if the bike is supplied with a rider control throttle already fitted, even if not used, it is not an exempt pedelec, hence it needing type approval. Equally if fitted with rider control capable of raising the assist limit to defeat that exemption condition, it loses pedelec exemption, whether used or not. "
as vfr pointed out, that's your interpretation though.
Extrapolating from your posts, any bike that can be unlocked is illegal.
One could argue that installing a software update involves unlocking the LCD, so any bike with LCD that can be unlocked or have its software updated is potentially illegal.
I checked and rechecked regularly the EU's own publications, including the link I gave in a previous post in this thread, which I thought is the clearest explanation of what the rules are, what tests the bike must pass, what labels must be on the bike and what additional information must be in the user manual.

There are many bikes with dual settings sold all over Europe. The GreyP is an example in point.
As far as I can see, locking the LCD with a password is what many suppliers do. Component-wise, it's the same bike as one supplied unlocked or one that was previously locked now unlocked.
Find me a bike that cannot be unlocked then I will be convinced.
 
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soundwave

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May 23, 2015
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problem is they can set the laws but if the police will not enforce it because you have to remember will it be in the public interest to prosecute and if the cps thinks there is any chance they will not win the case it will be dropped and no action taken bar say a caution or small fine.

and as 1 of the biggest haibike dealers in the uk sell and fit dongles and honors the warranty he sure as hell dont give a dam lol.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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as vfr pointed out, that's your interpretation though.
Not so, it is demonstrably the DfT's interpretation as their ruling on throttles shows. If a pedelec as supplied can defeat any of the three basic conditions for type approval exemption by the use of the supplied rider controls, it is technically not legal to use it. That is why the throttle defeat, whether used or not, removes the exemption. The same applies to as supplied rider available assist speed alteration controls.

Extrapolating from your posts, any bike that can be unlocked is illegal.
One could argue that installing a software update involves unlocking the LCD, so any bike with LCD that can be unlocked or have its software updated is potentially illegal.
Not if modification is involved. Unlocking the LCD is a modification of the bike as supplied, so the bike remains a pedelec if that isn't done to change the legal conditions. Software updates from the manufacturer conforming to the type approval requirements are of course legal, since the rider cannot use them to alter the exemption conditions and the bike remains compliant.

There are many bikes with dual settings sold all over Europe. The GreyP is an example in point.
There are many illegal e-bikes sold throughout Europe, and have been since 1999 at least. That it happens doesn't constitute legality of course.

As far as I can see, locking the LCD with a password is what many suppliers do. Component-wise, it's the same bike as one supplied unlocked or one that was previously locked now unlocked.
It's not just about components, the type approval regulations concern the bike as supplied. If access to the controls to alter the speed is locked from the rider by the supplier using a password, it is compliant. If the rider subsequently finds and uses the password to unlock that to give access to control illegality, the bike as supplied has been modified and loses the exemption. If the rider is able to relock it to supplied condition and hasn't introduce an illegal condition, the bike returns to compliance.
.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,763
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problem is they can set the laws but if the police will not enforce it because you have to remember will it be in the public interest to prosecute and if the cps thinks there is any chance they will not win the case it will be dropped and no action taken bar say a caution or small fine.

and as 1 of the biggest haibike dealers in the uk sell and fit dongles and honors the warranty he sure as hell dont give a dam lol.
Agreed, and as I've often made clear, I don't care what others do to their pedelecs, it's none of my business.

And I'm not too bothered by what conditions the legislators set, it's their business not mine.

But as a matter of principle everyone should know what the law is and what it's intended to do. In that context all the ducking and diving in efforts to convince the law isn't what it is and convince that law defeat controls are legal are not acceptable since they only confuse.

The DfT ruling on having a fitted throttle that can defeat a pedelec exemption condition was definitive. It clearly applies to any rider control available without modification that can defeat either of the other two fundamental exemption conditions.

Such machines are technically not compliant pedelecs.
.
 

soundwave

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Woosh

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Not if modification is involved. Unlocking the LCD is a modification of the bike as supplied, so the bike remains a pedelec if that isn't done to change the legal conditions. Software updates from the manufacturer conforming to the type approval requirements are of course legal, since the rider cannot use them to alter the exemption conditions and the bike remains compliant.
OK, let's look at this argument further.
Lets say that the password for Bafang LCD is 0512. You navigate through the on screen menu, the LCD asks you for the password. You enter the password, you are in the setting screen.
On the Tongsheng LCD, you have 10 seconds after power up to hold down two buttons for 3 seconds then press the i button 4 times to get to the same settings screen.
What's the fundamental difference? Why one is legal (Bafang) and the other not?
The same way works with other LCDs, your software connects to the UART and sends the password to get to the settings menu.
It's just the degree of complexity of the password.
Once cracked, the user can change the password or remove it altogether.
My point is, the act of changing the settings breaks the law, not the complexity of the sequence of key presses.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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A current Bosch equipped ebike.
this thread shows you a simple method to derestrict it.
there is no fundamental difference because of the methods, between a modification by software or hardware.
If Bosch were threatened with heavy fines for not making tampering impossible, they'd put a 3-axis or 6-axis gyro chip inside the controller.
 

ebiker99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2019
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this thread shows you a simple method to derestrict it.
there is no fundamental difference because of the methods, between a modification by software or hardware.
If Bosch were threatened with heavy fines for not making tampering impossible, they'd put a 3-axis or 6-axis gyro chip inside the controller.
I must have missed the simple method to derestrict Bosch bikes, what is it?

VFR said he'd seen a Bosch bike that somebody said was derestricted but he doesn't know what's involved. I suspect 3rd party hardware hidden behind the motor case, these are readily available from Germany.
 

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