E-bike standardisation anyone?

[Straylight]

I'd like to start a discussion about the lack of common standards of manufacture and interface between the components of e-bikes.

It seems to me, that if there were say a standard connector and wiring configuration (& control voltages etc.) for brake lever cut-outs & throttles, then it would allow a market for upgrades to any bike's standard kit, along with the possibility of options at the original point of sale. This in turn would make it easier, and hopefully more tempting for large, established component manufacturers to produce lines of high quality parts for such aftermarket opportunities. Along with making it easier for owners to set up their bikes to their personal preference, regardless of their technical ability, and make the whole thing less daunting.

It also seems like a good thing for the newly esablished BEBA to get their teeth into.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Mussels]

I don't think the market is mature enough for that. Manufacturers make changes to connections to find better systems, standards would stifle innovation.

 

[Straylight]

I see what you're saying, but most components are common, particularly when it comes to hub driven bikes, more so when it comes to basic controls and connectors. After all, all the motors are DC, all the brakes have switches, all the throttles work by feeding a variable control voltage to the controler etc.

If a manufacturer were to invent something new, then it would be in their interest to agree a standard of implementation with their customers, and other manufacturers that they could then licence the design to. This way, their product would reach a far wider audience than if it was kept as part of a proprietary system. If a new feature came on the market, wouldn't you be more tempted to buy it if it didn't mean replacing your whole bike, but just a few components?

 

[Straylight]

Ok, I admit this is pretty 'dry' stuff, but I do feel that the point's important enough to be raised. It stems from a thought I had about getting the e-bike 'out of the shed' in terms of personal customisation, and turning it into a ubiquitous everyday item, such as the home pc, with easy upgrade paths available for anyone who wants them.

Rather than stifling innovation, I'd like to see it flourish in a wider marketplace. For instance, why is no one making high spec bare frames that can accomodate a battery pack for home kit builders? The lack of which means that the power supply ends up being jury-rigged to a standard bike, causing uneven weight distribution, and generaly looking fairly messy? The answer being that there is no standard form factor for a battery pack.

As an aside, if there were such a standard, then when the time came to replace your battery, the options would be far greater than they are now. Even speaking as a technician, I'd far rather be out riding than messing about in the shed with a multimeter and a soldering iron.

 

[Mussels]

As an aside, if there were such a standard, then when the time came to replace your battery, the options would be far greater than they are now. Even speaking as a technician, I'd far rather be out riding than messing about in the shed with a multimeter and a soldering iron.

I'd love it if they just used standard connectors, even if they were different. I went into Maplins yesterday and found their biggest component nerd but he had never seen a connector like the one on my charger and didn't have anything to replace it.

 

[Footie]

In the short time I have been acquainted with ebikes I have only had two chargers but had to change the connectors (on both, at both ends) due to not being able to find matching plugs (made in China ).
I recently had a close encounter with Tamiya and Kyosho Race Pack Connectors (trying to build a small pack for short trips). Regrettable I have found them to be the most awkward dam fittings available and one needs a bank loan to buy them (£2 each). I have since thrown the lot in the bin (£20 worth) as they are c**p.
Still looking for detachable connectors (need to detach the packs to charge them) .... If anyone knows of any good ones let me know
Decent standardised connectors would be a blessing

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Cougar Mountain Electric Bike 36v 200w rear wheel Hub motor (Jul07)
fitted with 10 Ah LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
Maximum range (road/hills - Cornwall) 18 miles
Maximum range (on flat) 25 miles
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[Straylight]

Well thank god - I thought it was just me I really do think it's time the industry stepped up to the challenge of realising the pottential for their buisiness, for the benefit of everyone. As things stand, I think the current variability, and so uncertainty can only serve to put people off the whole idea.

It is, after all, a fairly simple modular system, that without these hurdles in the way, pretty much anyone could get their head round. So why not make it as 'user friendly' as possible?

Appologies, enough of my rhetoric I just find the concept of something that should be, and indeed is, so strightforward, being complicated by such trivia as connectors impossibly frustrating (maybe I should get out more ).

 

[Straylight]

So that was my two-penneth worth, does anyone else have any ideas to make e-biking more attractive/accessable to those who currently see it as a rather geeky oddity?

 

[Footie]

I’m not sure that saying “we need ideas to make e-biking more attractive/accessible” is the right mindset. From what I can see electric biking is very much a personal choice, be it made for environmental, health or financial reasons. People who have those issues at heart will naturally steer towards electric biking. Those that don’t seem unlikely to take up the electric bike call.
As I have said before e-bikes are a paradox; the biggest selling feature is they help you up hills, yet hills kill the batteries. If you live somewhere like Holland then it’s great (50 miles range no problem).
Personally I would like to see far greater ranges in hilly terrains (lots of hills here in Cornwall). With luck future development of batteries will come to the rescue – I hope.
Regrettably, in the UK the legislation is the biggest thorn as it restricts electric bikes due to low powers and weight, meaning big motors and the ability to have lots of powerful batteries on board (to get up all those flaming hills) is not allowed.
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Cougar Mountain Electric Bike 36v 200w rear wheel Hub motor (Jul07)
fitted with 10 Ah LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
Maximum range (road/hills - Cornwall) 18 miles
Maximum range (on flat) 25 miles
.

 

[flecc]

I'd love it if they just used standard connectors, even if they were different. I went into Maplins yesterday and found their biggest component nerd but he had never seen a connector like the one on my charger and didn't have anything to replace it.

If you mean the newest Wisper connector with the earth pin in a different plane, it was changed to that for safety reasons. It was originally a standard connector often used on mains equipment, but clearly that could allow someone to plug into mains, so unacceptable and had to be changed, the simple solution being to re-orient the earth pin.

That's an illustration of how standardisation isn't quite as easy as it might seem superficially. A large market can have some standardisation as we see in the types of microphone connectors used worldwide, likewise the mini-jacks used on consumer audio equipment, but the e-bike market is a tiddler and cannot at present have all minor items designed for it.

Therefore connectors designed for other purposes have to be used, and those are almost always unsatisfactory in at least one respect and usually several. It follows that manufacturers will choose the compromises most suited to their design. For some designs the waterproofing will be the most important, for others the small size or proportions of the connector, and there are other factors which can intrude like current loading.

If the market ever becomes big enough for a specific range of connectors to be designed and the bike component manufacturers like Shimano and SRAM start to manufacture components for e-bikes, we will get standardisation following, but I see little chance at the moment.
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[Bandit]

The Panasonic-powered bikes all use the same battery, so could that be a big enough market for someone else to supply? Do batteries have a built-in management system that keeps track of their charge history? I think something like this would be necessary if we're ever to have battery "swap" outlets of the kind people are proposing for electric cars. Maybe an enterprising organisation will provide a "battery lease" option where you buy your bike sans battery and pay-as-you-go for batteries. The actual charge electricity doesn't seem to be a significant cost compared with the battery depreciation.

 

[Straylight]

If the market ever becomes big enough for a specific range of connectors to be designed and the bike component manufacturers like Shimano and SRAM start to manufacture components for e-bikes, we will get standardisation following, but I see little chance at the moment.
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I don't think we need to have a connector type specificaly invented for e-bikes, rather an existing connector to be adopted by the industry as a whole for a specific task. I.e. all DC chargers using the same connector, same for all motors etc. This way, when people need to replace them, the replacement would be obvious, and a lot easier to get hold of. The advantage of common wiring & voltage configurations for the handlebar equipment etc. would be similarly one of convienience, as one could buy a generic replacement with the confidence that it would fit and work without any hassle. The main idea being to give the consumer a level of chioce, rather than being stuck with an individual manufacturer's proprietary system. The advantage for he manufacturers/kit compilers would be to allow them to use a wider range of components, rather than comissioning them to be custom made for their system.

Surely, as you say it's a relatively small industry, some common standards wouldn't be that hard to establish in order to lead the way for more companies to produce parts for the increasing market?

 

[flecc]

some common standards wouldn't be that hard to establish in order to lead the way for more companies to produce parts for the increasing market?

More could be done, but it's still not as easy as you assume. Using the example you give, charger plug in systems, many use the XLR type connector, but it causes problems for customers who find difficulty in getting sufficient grip to disconnect it. A few use the NTC type which is a smaller version to suit their compact batteries, but that has issues of isolation in higher current situations. Others like Wisper use a large standard connector which is easy for consumers to use, but they are often used on mains so have to be specially modified as Wisper have done, and in any case they are too big for some of the more compact batteries.

It follows from this that reaching agreement isn't as easy as you might think, since those technical issues are real and design restrictive.
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[flecc]

The Panasonic-powered bikes all use the same battery, so could that be a big enough market for someone else to supply? Do batteries have a built-in management system that keeps track of their charge history? I think something like this would be necessary if we're ever to have battery "swap" outlets of the kind people are proposing for electric cars. Maybe an enterprising organisation will provide a "battery lease" option where you buy your bike sans battery and pay-as-you-go for batteries. The actual charge electricity doesn't seem to be a significant cost compared with the battery depreciation.

The Panasonic battery will only suit relatively low powered bikes, so again it could not be a standard, and they do come in different sizes, not just one. One that could be a standard would be too big for many of the compact designs, so again as I've said, this is not as easy as you might assume. In any case, Panasonic will have design rights on socket, locking etc that could prevent others offering an alternative that fits.

The solutions you suggest are large market ones, so as I've said above, our e-bike market is as yet far too small to even think about those. They are for the future, if ever.
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[Straylight]

More could be done, but it's still not as easy as you assume. Using the example you give, charger plug in systems, many use the XLR type connector, but it causes problems for customers who find difficulty in getting sufficient grip to disconnect it. A few use the NTC type which is a smaller version to suit their compact batteries, but that has issues of isolation in higher current situations. Others like Wisper use a large standard connector which is easy for consumers to use, but they are often used on mains so have to be specially modified as Wisper have done, and in any case they are too big for some of the more compact batteries.

I believe the 2009 Wisper battery packs also use XLRs for charging, the 2008 has some weird Co-ax type thing (that I've never been able to identify). Working in the entertainment industry (where XLRs are par for the course - in a variety of pin number configurations), I don't quite understand why people would have problems disconnecting them, unless e-bike manufacturers are using a cheap variant without the latch. All you have to do with the latching type is to push a button on the flush mounting female connector, and it ejects the plug. The reason they're so common in my line of work is because they're robust, secure, and very easy to use. So they'd get my vote as the standard charge connector.

 

[Alex728]

Others like Wisper use a large standard connector which is easy for consumers to use, but they are often used on mains so have to be specially modified as Wisper have done, and in any case they are too big for some of the more compact batteries. .

Newer Wispers have an XLR socket (without the locking bit) for charging, and two blade connectors at the bottom of the battery housing for high current in a similar method to that used on the Powacycle Salisbury and maybe other machines.

I'm sure I've seen the "rotated" IEC connector in some obscure place (whilst looking for something else) but unfortunately I've since forgotten. I think its original application was also for 230V but for "clean power" feeds for business-critical IT and telecoms equipment.

I think a lot of the connectors used on e-bikes are multi-way PCB connectors commonly found inside lots mass-produced Chinese electronic equipment, but seemingly impossible to find in the West as individual lots (probably because they are custom made in quantity for the various lengths and configurations required).

I've read reliable reports of Chinese having seven floor malls devoted entirely to electronics - everything from SMD component to whole pieces of equipment and twenty-something youths (of both genders) having entire electronics labs and factories in their shared houses "just for fun" so they can design and make their own gadgets!

 

[Straylight]

I’m not sure that saying “we need ideas to make e-biking more attractive/accessible” is the right mindset. From what I can see electric biking is very much a personal choice, be it made for environmental, health or financial reasons. People who have those issues at heart will naturally steer towards electric biking. Those that don’t seem unlikely to take up the electric bike call.

Well I can only say that e-bike manufacturers would hope to disagree with you, and that I was refering to how e-biking fits into the public conciousness as a method of personal transport.

For example, some friends who I've told about my bike immediately associate it with a mobility scooter, whereas those that have actually had a go think it's the best thing since sliced bread. All normal, intelligent human beings, but with differing opinions based on their experience, and so perception. Much in the same way as some in the older generation shy away from computers, and others that have gotten to grips with the fundementals find them fantasticaly useful.

Accessibility and attraction is required, in my view, to lessen the ability to make an uninformed judgement. It's a tough cookie though, as this seems to be what human beings are best at. We do this, I think because we're essentially lazy, and it's far easier to dismiss than engage (appologies for wandering OT).

 

[flecc]

I don't quite understand why people would have problems disconnecting them, unless e-bike manufacturers are using a cheap variant without the latch.

The e-bike ones do not have latching, but most are not cheap variants, they are merely the latchless alternative. The disengagement problem which is very real (I've got them on my bikes) is the smooth shiny tapering with inadequate ridging of the XLR body being the only place to grip to overcome the tight resistance of the 3 pin contacts. This problem has been discussed in this forum and I know one solution adopted has been a household rubber glove. Of course the effect of this is worse on anyone with grip problems, and the elderly profile of a large proportion of e-bikers makes the problem bigger. Here's the type of XLR I'm speaking of:

XLR opened

XLR closed
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[flecc]

I'm sure I've seen the "rotated" IEC connector in some obscure place (whilst looking for something else) but unfortunately I've since forgotten. I think its original application was also for 230V but for "clean power" feeds for business-critical IT and telecoms equipment.

Wisper use it, but probably for the connection to the bike rather than charging. It is the IEC mains connector and they originally used that, but changed it to the rotated earth connector version for the safety reason I've given.
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[Footie]

Here's the type of XLR I'm speaking of:

XLR opened

XLR closed
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Just wondering if theses are man-enough for use on electric bike wiring.
The only one's I've been able to find appear to be for use with audio ... are they suitable for the high current wires on an electric bike?

XLR Connectors

If they are then I may get me some
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