E-bike standardisation anyone?

[flecc]

The current rating of the one I've shown is 15 amps at 120 volts, so yes, they are suitable for use on 24 or 36 volt e-bikes at higher currents, despite being originally being for microphone use. Maplin have them on this page.
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[Footie]

Thanks flecc, you may have just solved my connector problem.
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[flecc]

From what I can see electric biking is very much a personal choice, be it made for environmental, health or financial reasons. People who have those issues at heart will naturally steer towards electric biking. Those that don’t seem unlikely to take up the electric bike call.

I agree on this, and have posted as such before. Though I'd like to see e-bikes enjoying widespread adoption, historical parallels tend to indicate it won't happen. Consumers are more likely to adopt the electric alternatives needing no personal effort as they become available in better forms, with cars as the first choice and mopeds winning second place. E-bikers are likely to be exactly those you specify, and very much a minority.
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[flecc]

Thanks flecc, you may have just solved my connector problem.
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That's good. The only problem I see with these is the usual one of waterproofing, they need wrapping securely. Self amalgamating tape is good for that, also at Maplin. The rubber one is out of stock, but the silicone alternative is in stock and cheaper:

Tapes
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[Straylight]

If it's not based on cost, then one wonders why the latching variety isn't used, as surely part of their design is to make a secure connection, as well as being easier to release, with them not being reliant on friction to hold them together.

Yes, the Wisper 2008 battery packs use the modified IEC for power output to the controler.

 

[flecc]

If it's not based on cost, then one wonders why the latching variety isn't used, as surely part of their design is to make a secure connection, as well as being easier to release, with them not being reliant on friction to hold them together.

I daresay it's the designer view on the application. In their original application as microphone connectors on long leads, latching versions would be used on wandering connections which were subject to movement, snaking across studio floors as they do. Non-latching are for stationary connections of the sort that we use when charging, so they appear to be the right ones for the job. Most e-bikes could use the latching versions of course, their pin contacts are just as tight but there's more to get hold of when detaching.

It's for these sort of reasons that I prefer connectors designed for a job rather than those for other purposes which have differing needs. Panasonic on the earlier unit used a plastic DIN type charging connector and also faced the slippery tapering body problem, but they sensibly moulded on an outer part which gave a firm hand hold for unplugging. Another major e-bike manufacturer could do the same using a plastic bodied XLR connector if his production was large enough to justify that expense, but I doubt any are anything like big enough for that. Here's that Panasonic one, not very clear but you can see the enlarged fingergrip section:


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[Alex728]

Many of the ebike components seem to come from here so I suspect there is a sort of "standardisation" but one that comes from having a monopoly supplier with significant market power. I don't unfortunately know enough Chinese to read all the data sheets (even the English bit which has recently been updated doesn't have translations for everything).

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however as part of the update they have got rid of their music though which is a shame, I actually quite liked it...

NB: "Wuxing" alone just means "five stars" and there are loads of companies with this name making all manner of products, not just bicycle components. I get the impression this company has some links to the Government of China and local universities...

 

[Straylight]

Interesting - now we know where Wisper sourced their connectors for the controller & FCB, pity there isn't an easy source for them here, without hassling Wisper Service. Not that I need any right now, but if I should in the future, it'd be nice to be able to simply order them from a website, rather than to feel like I was begging a favour.

 

[fcurran]

If the market ever becomes big enough for a specific range of connectors to be designed and the bike component manufacturers like Shimano and SRAM start to manufacture components for e-bikes, we will get standardisation following, but I see little chance at the moment.
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This may not be as far away as you may think...

Bike Europe - News: Shimano Announces Entry in e-Bike Market

Regards

FrankC
Powabyke Ltd

 

[flecc]

Yes, I saw that Frank and posted a thread on it:

Shimano and e-bikes

and in the fourth post down there I commented on the items needed. Shimano seem more interested in motorisation of a hub gear at present though, so I'm not holding my breath!
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[Straylight]

Well I took the stuff about a hub geared motor to be more speculation on behalf of the journalist, but Tazio's reference to their entry being "in a few years” sounds like it's not imminent anyway, sadly. Still it means that the minnows have a chance to set the stage before the sharks turn up I'd say . As they'd then be ready to easily work with any future developments.

 

[Straylight]

I agree on this, and have posted as such before. Though I'd like to see e-bikes enjoying widespread adoption, historical parallels tend to indicate it won't happen. Consumers are more likely to adopt the electric alternatives needing no personal effort as they become available in better forms, with cars as the first choice and mopeds winning second place. E-bikers are likely to be exactly those you specify, and very much a minority.

I disagree, as saying this is saying that the culture in the UK is incapable of evolving, and that people's attitudes are entrenched and immovable. I think a lot more people would have a go, if it were a) cheaper, b)better publicised, & c) presented as a thought through, neatly packaged technology.

There's a reason why most consumer items come in shiny boxes, and that's because they allow people to feel confident that all the technicalities have been taken care of, and that the thing will just work.

 

[Alex728]

I think a lot more people would have a go, if it were a) cheaper, b)better publicised, & c) presented as a thought through, neatly packaged technology.

I think its more a marketing/sales than technical issue. Both of us found there are no e-bike dealers in this region with "proper" shops! I think we are also both engineers so building a bike from semi assembled bits in a carton isn't a massive issue but I know many who would find it a challenging task.

But younger people, and in todays multicultural Britain also those who come from cultures where cycling is more popular are already curious about e-bikes. For instance just yesterday another Fillipino colleague asked "where can I get an e-bike from in England?" (they must be increasingly popular in the Phillipines or in SE Asia as a whole)

20 somethings often do not consider the total cost of ownership of a car, especially as the cost of such things as obtaining driving licenses, insurance and maintenance may still be part subsidised by parents.. they may only find this an issue when they leave the family home, but many move to other regions so think a car is "essential" for going back and forth..

Also in this region my middle aged work colleagues also like the idea but have too much invested in cars, plus (and this is no criticism of powabyke) the popularity of this company's traditional heavy lead acid bikes amongst the older generation (60+) as well as a (now defunct?) e-bike company based in Sudbury means that for the middle aged the e-bike is viewed like a mobility scooter and riding one as a sign of entering their dotage!

But many people are wholly unaware Wispers or Powacycle or Powabyke X-series models even exist until they see one - this again is IMO due to the lack of traditional bike shops selling them. I'm sure everyone here who cycles agrees there is a certain atmosphere about a "traditional" bike shop and getting a new machine from one, all ready assembled and checked...

 

[Straylight]

Absolutely, and cosidering the rise of the e-bike in the Netherlands, you'd think that EA was the perfect place to start the revolution (pardon the pun ). After all, lots of people come here for cycling hoidays because of the terrain. Instead, the markting focus has been 'help with the hills', rather than 'go further - faster!'.

I do think that a refinement and simplification of the technology has a part to play though, and that a sytem of common interfaces would increase the chances of owners being tempted to 'pimp their rides', and so give a seccondary market for upgrades. This in turn, increasing the 'cool factor', and making the whole thing more attractive to the kids, and there's lots of those sitting on bikes on street corners these days.

If, however, the market for e-bikes in the UK is as Footie and Flecc suppose, then it's somewhat bad news all round. Unless you have a large disposable income, chances are that you're only going to buy one or two e-bikes in your lifetime, leaving the industry, having at the moment a very small consumer base, in something of a cul-de-sac. This leads to companies going out of buisiness, a lack of parts and servicing, and the eventual death of a yet another good idea.

 

[flecc]

I disagree, as saying this is saying that the culture in the UK is incapable of evolving, and that people's attitudes are entrenched and immovable.

I'm not saying that, since historically it was quite the opposite. It was precisely because attitudes do evolve that people do take advantage of advances in personal wealth and access to improved forms of transport. That is why the huge decade long boom in petrol assist on bikes with over a million on UK roads vanished so quickly, increased affluence and availability of scooters like the Vespa and Lambretta for most and cars for an increasing number killing the assisted bike market.

Look at the facts. That penetration of a million plus powered bikes happened well within one decade, but today after almost two decades of commercial e-bikes they haven't reached one tenth of that. That will grow slowly to a somewhat larger number in present circumstances, but I very much doubt they will reach anything like that million before starting to decline again in favour of fully powered alternatives for the great majority of people. I can never see them being mass transport in the UK.
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[flecc]

making the whole thing more attractive to the kids, and there's lots of those sitting on bikes on street corners these days.

I fully agree that the kids market is wide open for the taking, but our silly restrictive law prevents that happening. They are illegal for under 14 year olds, but under 14 is where the cycling kids are who might take it up. At 14 upwards it's too late, they've already got their eyes on the prospect of a moped at 16, and at 14 they are also getting more interested in the opposite sex, for which purpose bikes are more a nuisance than a convenience.

If, however, the market for e-bikes in the UK is as Footie and Flecc suppose, then it's somewhat bad news all round. Unless you have a large disposable income, chances are that you're only going to buy one or two e-bikes in your lifetime, leaving the industry, having at the moment a very small consumer base, in something of a cul-de-sac. This leads to companies going out of business, a lack of parts and servicing, and the eventual death of a yet another good idea.

This is exactly what the market is like, and even in the three years existence of this site I've seen a number complete their entire e-bike ownership life cycle. The ability to buy and enjoy, a gradual loss of interest or changing circumstances reducing the usage, followed by giving them up.

One very common event has been buying one for a commute, then the employment changing and the bike no longer any use, leading to it's disposal. There's also the large elderly market, one bought and used for a while until the rapidly encroaching effects of age lead to the bike falling out of use.

There's also the damage that cheap e-bikes do to the market. People buy junk at between £300 and £500 thinking it expensive for a bike, and that doesn't last well and leads to them abandoning it within a year or two. You can be sure that after that experience most won't go down the e-bike road again.
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[Alex728]

I get the emerging generation of youths (aged 14-20) are becoming increasingly environmentally and socially aware.. plus the next bunch of chinless wonders destined to govern us are going to be "cracking down on the youth" rather than being "down with the youth" just like 20 years ago (whatever spin they might tell you now), and young moped owners and drivers are easy targets.

Even between my own teenage years and today loads more bureaucracy has been put in the way of owning a moped, not least the CBT which runs out after two years (which doesn't take into account the two years experience the rider has got).

A lot of my younger friends are finding their motor cars to be unaffordable and are using them less, or are being busted for traffic violations (which were overlooked in the 90s) and losing their licenses. Petrol isn't getting any cheaper. A lot of my twenty something friends do not actually drive or if they did are not able to run a car. Some have had mopeds but have been put off by CBT running out (the cost of getting it again isn't that much less than a new e-bike battery!) A £600-£800 e-bike is now within the range of a lot of younger people....

 

[flecc]

That's very true Alex, but some of that is due to financial elements which change over time. Also restrictions like the CBT become more acceptable with time and become less of an impediment, and they've certainly been no impediment in my area where moped ownership by teens is very common, while cycling by them is virtually completely absent.

There's a parallel in the 1950s with the petrol assisted bikes. Unlike e-bikes, they suffered the bureaucracy of having registration, number plates, road fund tax discs and payment, L plates and a driving test, just as if they were motorbikes. That didn't stop over a million hitting our roads in the 1950s, which is the same number as the estimated number of motorcycles that are actually on the road at present.

There's a further impetus to moped sales in London and the immediate Home Counties where they have been booming. The congestion charge has resulted in many owning them for commuting, so with parental example it's easier for the young to adopt them.
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[Alex728]

That's very true Alex, but some of that is due to financial elements which change over time. Also restrictions like the CBT become more acceptable with time and become less of an impediment, and they've certainly been no impediment in my area where moped ownership by teens is very common, while cycling by them is virtually completely absent.

I don't have an issue with the CBT (I think it may even have some gains in road safety) but what annoys me is how it expires after two years, implying the new rider somehow "unlearns" all their road experience

I actually think it is counterproductive as it either means people think "might as well get a car" (which is viewed as potentially safer at higher speeds) or those who really like motorbikes are encouraged to get a more powerful machine very soon after passing their test (due to the time and money invested in doing so), so they grativate towards more powerful vehicles and sadly a lot of them have a nasty crash and are badly hurt or killed (a mechanic friend of mine, in his early 20s, has already had to go to a fair few wakes of his young friends killed in RTC's)

Out of those teens/youths, I wonder how many of them are riding on a expired CBT? particularly as they reach 18/19 and haven't quite got the money to afford the test and are willing to chance it with the risk of ending up before the beak..

Bear in mind cops in your area probably have many far worse issues to keep them busy, but round here it can be a bit like the movie "Hot Fuzz" and there are regular checks on both four and two wheeled road users (including cyclists!)

I'm sure in many other EU nations once you have done your "CBT-style" test you just get a license to ride lower powered mopeds for as long as you are medically fit to do so....

 

[flecc]

I agree Alex, the CBT should remain valid. I don't know the position elsewhere in the EU, but most of this law is standard throughout the community.

Your cops seem like the ones in my youth riding motorcycles when there were numerous traffic patrol cars and they made a real nuisance of themselves, far beyond what was reasonable or necessary.
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