E-bikes using the Pansonic unit

[flecc]

I've come across further makes now using the Panasonic unit other than Panasonic themselves, bringing the total to 15 makes, many of them having several models. Most are not yet on our UK market, but here's the latest list, and I've turned the newest additions into links for you to see some of the models on a French forum:

BH

Biketech Flyers

Calvin

Gazelle

Gitane

Helkama (VAE)

Kalkhoff ( Derby Cycle Group)

Kettler

Monark

Puch

Raleigh ( Derby Cycle Group)

Rixe

Simplex

Technium

Victoria
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[eddieo]

Panasonic seem to be going for world wide domination.

All the bikes look much of a muchness. But the simplex looks very svelte, maybe because of skinny tyres.........

 

[Rad]

The Puch and Calvin are my favourites. Though I'd like to see the Calvin with a diamond frame.

 

[flecc]

I liked the Puch Boost too, though I may have been influenced by memories of their racing twin piston two-stroke motorbikes of years ago, racing as the EMC-Puch brand. Times have obviously changed for them!

As you say Eddie, there seems no stopping them. In fact one of our larger and best known e-bike makers who shall be nameless thought of joining in recently, but after trials decided it was too different from their other models to fit into the range.
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[Bigbee]

and best known e-bike makers who shall be nameless thought of joining in recently, but after trials decided it was too different from their other models to fit into the range.
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Gis a clue,what letter does it start with? I would of thought a different option for the customers is a good idea?

 

[flecc]

Gis a clue,what letter does it start with? I would of thought a different option for the customers is a good idea?

It's one of 26 letters, so you know it's not Russian.

Sorry, but a commercial confidence has to be respected. Apart from not fitting into the range, they felt it didn't fit in with their philosophy on what an e-bike should be, so it was a wise choice. A manufacturer should always have belief in his products if they are to be any good.
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

A question seems to follow from this: do the units differ greatly from each other?

For example, there was a thread last year criticising the power of the early Emotion bikes sold in Spain. Do the new UK ones have exactly the same Panasonic unit? And are these the same as the ones used in the different Pro Connect variants?

Just wondering

 

[flecc]

They all appear to be the same now Andy, Panasonic now giving just one set of power figures. Those criticisms were of the earliest BH and also applied to the first Gazelle Easy Glider in 2007. They both used a slightly lower power setting and an 8 Ah hour battery, but following the introduction of the 10 Ah battery the units all used the standard power settings, regardless of which battery was fitted. In fact the difference was very small anyway, only just detectable according to A to B.

Actually the power setting can be academic for many riders, since the power they get is dictated as a ratio of the rider effort, one times rider effort in standard mode and a bit higher in high power mode. To utilise any additional power provided the rider has to put in additional effort anyway to get it matched with any increased power available. If they aren't able to reach that level of input, the extra power isn't available.

N.B. The high speed S models from Flyer and Kalkhoff have a 1.5 times instead of 1.3 times ratio of rider effort for the high power mode, but the motor remains the same.
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[flecc]

As Scott has said, it's the bike that makes the difference, two main factors to choose by. For pride of ownership it's the quality of course, and for best performance the weight and any added efficiency loss. There's a very real difference in the "feel" and liveliness between a 26 kilo suspension model with hubdyno and a 20 kilo rigid fork bike like the Pro Connect.

Across all of the Panasonic using models there's a huge weight range now, from a fully equipped 28 kilo fat tyred utility model with suspension to a stripped 16.5 kilo carbon fork bike with skinny race wheels and tyres. The difference between those two is going to be vast, even though they use the same power unit.
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

Thanks, some interesting thoughts here. Why can't all models be tuned to the 1.5 ratio? Or any other, for that matter?

 

[flecc]

Thanks, some interesting thoughts here. Why can't all models be tuned to the 1.5 ratio? Or any other, for that matter?

It's part of the internal electronics board Andy, it may be fixed or may be programmed at manufacture. The normal 1.3 ratio is the optimum for economy versus performance, the 1.5 only necessitated by the higher speed gearing of the S models which lose out on range as a result. Here's the sort of internal electronics board the Panasonic uses to manage all the functions and it's complex working methods, rather like a computer motherboard:

 

[AndyOfTheSouth]

Take your point about the electronics, Flecc, but isn't this the sort of thing that is usually held in the firmware in order to allow retuning? In this case to help bike companies differentiate between their models.

 

[rog_london]

Why can't I....

It's part of the internal electronics board Andy, it may be fixed or may be programmed at manufacture. The normal 1.3 ratio is the optimum for economy versus performance, the 1.5 only necessitated by the higher speed gearing of the S models which lose out on range as a result. Here's the sort of internal electronics board the Panasonic uses to manage all the functions and it's complex working methods, rather like a computer motherboard:

That's exactly what it is - that large square surface-mount chip in the middle is a microprocessor. As this is a continuing thread, here's a non-technical (I hope) explanation of why it's not possible to do anything with it after manufacture:

Usually the 'program' which the microprocessor follows - which includes the way the bike itself behaves, power curves, etc. - is part of the manufacture of the microprocessor itself. When developing a system (in this case, by Panasonic themselves) it's usual to have the program running externally from the microprocessor in order to tune it to work properly (i.e. to get rid of any bugs) and to sort out the power curves, etc.

Once all is well the final fabrication process 'builds in' the program (known as the 'firmware'), and then you can neither access it nor change it without re-manufacturing the chip itself. There may be different versions released - for example the 1.3x or 1.5x power output which Flecc has mentioned - but you won't be able to get hold of the different version of chip as Panasonic don't make that board to be repaired or modified anywhere else other than by themselves, and you couldn't change that chip yourself unless you have access to the necessary (commercial only and expensive) surface-mount soldering equipment..

In the world of PCs things are often done differently, as there it is expected that 'upgrades' to the firmware will be needed from time to time. A good example of this is the case of recording CD/DVD drives installed in PCs, where firmware updates are made available for some time after the release of a drive in order that new types of recordable DVD may be catered for with the same hardware. This is achieved by re-programming 'flash memory' which may be a part of the main microprocessor in the drive or in a separate chip, but either way there is no dismantling or extra kit needed as you use the PC's connections and facilities which are already there, and the update is just a computer file which can be made readily available for download over the internet for installation by someone who is completely non-technical. Ironically, this definitely includes DVD drives manufactured by Panasonic.

Clearly this is never going to happen with the Panasonic ebike drive. It's not in their interest to allow that, apart from the additional expense of building in an upload port and using flash memory instead of making the firmware part of the manufacturing process. Getting hold of a complete replacement board would be the only way you could go, and I suspect that would not be forthcoming from Panasonic either at any sort of reasonable price.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

Take your point about the electronics, Flecc, but isn't this the sort of thing that is usually held in the firmware in order to allow retuning? In this case to help bike companies differentiate between their models.

Yes it can be, but the practice of retuning seemed to disappear with the previous unit. In any case the variation possible on that was very small and applied equally across all power modes. I'm pleased they have settled on the one, since that old system caused endless confusion with customers never sure if they were getting what was best.

It's really not a system that lends itself to alteration, key things like the power ratio to cadence decline being firmly fixed by more than one aspect the system. Those who want to tune for performance differences are well served by the hub motor market where huge variations of all factors are possible.

If you haven't seen it before, this full explanation of the Panasonic system's working may be useful.
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[flecc]

Getting hold of a complete replacement board would be the only way you could go, and I suspect that would not be forthcoming from Panasonic either at any sort of reasonable price.

Rog.

Not possible anyway Rog. The mainboard is encapsulated overall and into the crankcase half, and it cannot be removed without breaking it, emphasising this is not a unit intended for any sort of alteration. If you look at the photo you'll see how the clear encapsulation is flowed over the cast alloy crankcase as well.
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[rog_london]

Not possible anyway Rog. The mainboard is encapsulated overall and into the crankcase half, and it cannot be removed without breaking it, emphasising this is not a unit intended for any sort of alteration. If you look at the photo you'll see how the clear encapsulation is flowed over the cast alloy crankcase as well.
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Ah yes, I'd heard that before. That proves that even Panasonic won't repair it, which is no surprise really, as any diagnostic and rework charge would exceed the value of the board in almost all cases. I guess the encapsulation is there mainly for weatherproofing and to prevent any component movement due to the inevitable bashing about that assembly (like the rest of the bike) must be subject to.

I haven't looked inside other controllers (and hope I may never need to) but I expect that generally most of those are filled with resin and only the wires poke out for similar reasons. Any possible tweaking would need to be built in, and we generally know what can be tweaked and what can't, don't we?

Rog.

 

[flecc]

That proves that even Panasonic won't repair it, which is no surprise really, as any diagnostic and rework charge would exceed the value of the board in almost all cases.

Rog.

They won't even consider any repairs in the unit or the supply of any internal spares, it's new complete unit only if anything goes wrong. That's why I created my Lafree technical website pages on control and unit repairs of these units and spares for them:

Switch repairs

Motor unit repairs

Spares

Via the website communications I've managed to get quite a few back into service, and I also often handle the more tricky tech problem queries on these units that A to B magazine refer to me.

One day I'll pick up a redundant new version unit and do the same for that for the small differences that exist.

Footnote: When Panasonic produced a large batch of motor units for Giant with a potential fault that meant they could default to Eco mode only, they didn't even bother repairing those. They just gave Giant a few hundred new whole units to change. Giant likewise had no repair intentions and therefore sent out new bikes against dealer orders with the new spare unit and instructions to the dealer to swap the units over and scrap the one taken off, all destined for landfill. As you can imagine, dealers were none too pleased.
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[frank9755]

I haven't looked inside other controllers (and hope I may never need to) but I expect that generally most of those are filled with resin and only the wires poke out for similar reasons.

Actually, while the Tongxin controllers are potted with resin, I'm not aware of any others which are. Most can be opened up via a few screws and those who care to do so can upgrade mosfets and tweak away. Not really what the vast majority of people on here would want to do, and beyond my electronics competence or interest, but the Endless Sphere forum has more on this than anyone could ever wish to read!