E-Rockit

[flash]

The London courier territory is mostly quite flat so fairly suitable for fixed gear riding, which has advantages in traffic conditions. However, the heyday of fixed gear cycling was pre-WW2, and once it was realised with time and age the knee damage that could result from low cadences, it dropped almost completely out of fashion. Sad to think that in those earlier cycling days cyclists were proud of how much force they could exert at very low rotations and boasted of long extremely hilly trips in that fashion, ignorant of how much they would subsequently suffer for it.

It would be difficult to restrict the pressure at low cadence by tailoring the motor response, since the rider would still be able to apply high pressure while the increased motor power accelerated to a higher cadence point. The joint cartilage only needs one rupture or displacement with bones touching to start the cycle of developing damage, so even intermittent instances of excess pressure would be harmful.
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I don't agree with you there Flecc I rode fixed wheel for 30 years. I usually rode on 68 inches which on a cadence of 96 rpm gave me about 19.2 mph with very little pressure on my knees etc when riding in normal terrain, I used to ride 7000 miles per year just commuting with this set up. Many of the off the peg road bikes used to only have a gear range of 108 to 49 inches these were sold to people who had never cycled which would do more damage than riding fixed.
My Uncle who died last year always rode fixed gear he was national hill climb champion in 1938 and continued to ride fixed up to him retiring from cycling in 1990 aged 83. He was always very disparaging of what he called honking which is what you define as " how much force they could exert at very low rotations and boasted of long extremely hilly trips in that fashion,". For many years he would ride ( with my aunty) to cornwall from Stoke on trent for his annual camping holiday. His usual gearing was 65inches but with a larger cog on the other side of his wheel for when it was hilly which gave him a gear of 50 inches.
The flywheel effect of the rear wheel on your legs is pure magic. So in my opinion rather than being from the past I see the magic of the fixed is the future for cyclists.

Fixed Wheel

 

[Straylight]

The beuty, as I see it, of the system I propose, would be to eliminate the need for excess torque on the pedals with the introduction of a motor into the drivetrain. This would, if I'm mentaly modeling it correctly, provide a constant proportion of the driving force, along with a very intuitive method of power control for the rider. As I said though, there would have to be some finesses such as a launch button/independant hand throttle, & possibly a range of power curves to adapt it to individual riders.

 

[flecc]

I think the only disagreement is on the intuitive bit, since riders do have cadence preferences and are uncomfortable outside their one. We've had cadence discussions in here before and they've only served to emphasise that. The fact that the overwhelming majority of riders have gear choices and use them to maintain stable cadence while disliking single speed bikes is proof enough of that.

The notion of "pedal faster - go faster" is superficially attractive as an idea but doesn't fit with what we physiologically like over long riding periods, and I think most would find it very tiresome once the novelty wore off.
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[Straylight]

Fair enough

The idea was based on the concept of making better use of a hub motor, with its low end torque, and gentle push at high speed, as I think that the existing system has some fundemental flaws. The primary of which, IMHO, is pedelec at low speed - the motor is either on or off, this makes it behave less like a bicycle, and more like a horse and cart. To address this, manufaturers have added throttles, and as on my Wisper (though probably uniquely on the Wisper), High/Low pedelec modes, which, now I'm used to, is all fine and dandy. BUT, it still does seem a rather bity, ununified control system, somewhat remenicient of very early cars, with all their levers & pedals etc. So, I find myself riding, using a bit of this, and a bit of that, and sometimes spending a bit more time than I'd like paying attention to the bike, in order to get the most out of it.

Now, I'm a slightly geeky/techie type of guy, so this is all good fun, but I also have an appreciation of the mechanical elegance of the basic bicycle, with its purety of purpose, and efficient design, and would love to see this enhanced by the additional power system, yet still remain true to its roots. This way, it could still have the sense of being an extension of oneself, which, to me, is one of the fundamental joys of cycling.

 

[frank9755]

Fair enough

To address this, manufaturers have added throttles, and as on my Wisper (though probably uniquely on the Wisper), High/Low pedelec modes, which, now I'm used to, is all fine and dandy. BUT, it still does seem a rather bity, ununified control system, somewhat remenicient of very early cars, with all their levers & pedals etc. So, I find myself riding, using a bit of this, and a bit of that, and sometimes spending a bit more time than I'd like paying attention to the bike, in order to get the most out of it.

In fact one of the Ezee F-bikes was launched a couple of years ago with 8 different level settings for pedelec operation. I thought it sounded like a decent idea but some thought the knob they used to adjust it looked like the browning adjustment on a toaster (which it did!) and it seems to have been dropped now.

I very much agree with your general point that the best way to control an e-bike has yet to be developed. Other than that Ezee 8-stage pedelec and the Cytronex buttons, there has not been much innovation in this area.

 

[flecc]

I think that the existing system has some fundemental flaws. The primary of which, IMHO, is pedelec at low speed - the motor is either on or off, this makes it behave less like a bicycle, and more like a horse and cart. To address this, manufaturers have added throttles, and as on my Wisper (though probably uniquely on the Wisper), High/Low pedelec modes, which, now I'm used to, is all fine and dandy. BUT, it still does seem a rather bity, ununified control system, somewhat remenicient of very early cars, with all their levers & pedals etc. So, I find myself riding, using a bit of this, and a bit of that, and sometimes spending a bit more time than I'd like paying attention to the bike, in order to get the most out of it.

I fully agree with this, most hub motor e-bikes have a crude and generally unsatisfactory control system, so much so that I prefer to have just a simple throttle twistgrip only and take over all function manually.

I've stressed the Panasonic system since its a shining exception amongst e-bike motors, a sophisticated system that works flawlessly. The philosophy behind the way it works doesn't suit everyone, but there's no denying the perfection of what it does do in accordance with it's design.
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[bode]

I prefer to have just a simple throttle twistgrip only and take over all function manually.

Sorry for a naïve question, as I have not yet investigated the wiring to my bike's controller, but on bike equipped with normal pedelec and throttle functions, should merely disconnecting the wire from the pedelec sensor (or putting a switch in it) provide this condition?

 

[frank9755]

Probably. But some controllers work differently and it could stop teh bike working altogether. You really need to talk to someone with the same type of bike, or experiment!

 

[flecc]

As Frank says. they vary, but it's worth trying unplugging to see. eZee very sensibly have the pedelec mode switched at the handlebars, either in or out but both modes using the throttle to determine power.
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[bode]

Thanks. I'll try a bit of fiddling. Just depends if there turns out to be a push-on connector or if it would mean cutting a wire, something I would be reluctant to do during the warranty period.

 

[Patrick]

I fully agree with this, most hub motor e-bikes have a crude and generally unsatisfactory control system, so much so that I prefer to have just a simple throttle twistgrip only and take over all function manually.

I've stressed the Panasonic system since its a shining exception amongst e-bike motors, a sophisticated system that works flawlessly. The philosophy behind the way it works doesn't suit everyone, but there's no denying the perfection of what it does do in accordance with it's design.

It's not surprising that e-bike controls are so tricky to get right, as manufactured artifacts they are relatively straightforward, but once you add a rider they become twin engined machines, and one of those engines has a physiology, riding style and psychology all of its own and totaly out of the control of the bike designer.

This makes e-bikes much more complex than, say, cars in a fundamental way. For example, you can convert a car to run via remote control

Using the AX2550 to Remote or Computer Control a Full-Size Automobile - roboteq.com

but imagine trying to do the same trick with an e-bike.

When you add to that the fact that people want bikes that simultaniously ride just a like pushbike and require significantly less effort to ride than a pushbike, the task seems nearly impossible.

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

I fully agree with this, most hub motor e-bikes have a crude and generally unsatisfactory control system, so much so that I prefer to have just a simple throttle twistgrip only and take over all function manually......

....i'm of the same opinion and have disconnected the pedelec sensor, found it to be a bit of a pest in tight slow-moving traffic as it had a tendency to 'snatch', now i use the throttle only, this suits my riding style as i often just want to pedal with no assistance.

 

[Straylight]

This was why I proposed the caence sensor to gently ramp the power at low speed, and thus control the relatively high torque of the hub motor. I suppose it would have to be based on some kind of encoder, as used in automated lighting fixtures to give the processing a high enough resolution (a technology that's been around since the early 1980's) to keep the power curve from becoming noticably 'steppy'. In fact it wouldn't need to be as complicated as those used in the lighting industry, as positional data wouldn't be required, just rate of rotation.

 

[e-man]

Looks very much like a light motorbike with pedals to me, and obviously very heavy using motorcycle components.

Very illegal without moped registration etc even in Germany. I'd just buy the real thing if I wanted to travel like that.
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..in that case you missed the point

 

[e-man]

It was on the midday BBC 1 news and it does have a torque sensor which is the only speed control. It was also registered with number plate so it needs the correct motorcycle driving licence for it's 50 mph capability.

The inventor seems to be beyond eccentric into nutter territory, advocating pedal control even in lorries!

All very silly, and the BBC's judgment is lacking in having it as an item for the middle of the main national news, not even as an "and finally" item.
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Seems to me to be much more stupid to carry on throwing away your hard earned wages at a petrol pump every week. This is transport at a fraction and without pollution.

How can you not want to be able to travel around at a speed comparative to your car and at cost that is almost zero compared to conventional travelling AND with the knowledge that you no longer have to contribute your money to the wealth of those oil conglomerate investors whose life status you can only dream about.. just so long as you can carry on driving your (soon to be extinct as a mode of transport because of PEAK-OIL) hunk of metal for another 7 days until the next fill-up.

 

[flecc]

Seems to me to be much more stupid to carry on throwing away your hard earned wages at a petrol pump every week. This is transport at a fraction and without pollution.

How can you not want to be able to travel around at a speed comparative to your car and at cost that is almost zero compared to conventional travelling AND with the knowledge that you no longer have to contribute your money to the wealth of those oil conglomerate investors whose life status you can only dream about.. just so long as you can carry on driving your (soon to be extinct as a mode of transport because of PEAK-OIL) hunk of metal for another 7 days until the next fill-up.

How very wrong you are! Cost of almost zero (!), have you even looked at battery prices and do you even know how short lived they are? Mopeds and light motorcycles are far cheaper to run. Have you the slightest idea of how scarce lithium is?

And once again this peak oil nonsense. I first heard the threat that peak oil was about to happen in the 1960s, then the '70s, the '80s, the '90s and still it's being said. The fact is that we will still be largely using fossil fuel vehicles in 50 years time. The fuel will get ever dearer, but that's what it's always done. As now, people who can't afford as much will cut down their usage and plan their journeys more sensibly, often with combined purposes. Only when we are a long way past peak oil and about 80% past it will fossil fuel vehicles disappear, as realisation dawns that we need the remaining 20% for chemical uses. That point is a very long way away.