Ebike Problems?

[onmebike]

Checking these threads each day I can't help wondering why most of the problems appear to be with Wisper's and the better quality ebike's.
Is it simply a case of there being more of them?

 

[Blew it]

Probably, and of course the regular presence of the major retailers who support the forum financially

 

[Mussels]

Checking these threads each day I can't help wondering why most of the problems appear to be with Wisper's and the better quality ebike's.
Is it simply a case of there being more of them?

It's probably because they are likely to get an answer, if I thought nobody would know how to answer my question then I wouldn't bother asking.

 

[flecc]

The main reason is in two parts, first that in an enthusiast's forum the ownership is more likely to be of expensive bikes, second that a fair proportion of the cheaper e-bike buyers are likely to have bought out of lack of knowledge due to never visiting a site like this, so unable to report their problems.

There's an associated reason due to the low cost of cheap e-bikes, owners can afford to write off the failed one after a year or so of use, especially when the repair can costing as much as a replacement. Buyers of expensive bikes won't do that of course and will seek a repair and repair advice.

A further associated reason is that enthusiast buyers of expensive bikes are inclined to use them much more, so wear and tear are much greater.
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[onmebike]

The main reason is in two parts, first that in an enthusiast's forum the ownership is more likely to be of expensive bikes, second that a fair proportion of the cheaper e-bike buyers are likely to have bought out of lack of knowledge due to never visiting a site like this, so unable to report their problems.

There's an associated reason due to the low cost of cheap e-bikes, owners can afford to write off the failed one after a year or so of use, especially when the repair can costing as much as a replacement. Buyers of expensive bikes won't do that of course and will seek a repair and repair advice.

A further associated reason is that enthusiast buyers of expensive bikes are inclined to use them much more, so wear and tear are much greater.
.

Its great that several suppliers frequent this forum and offer support and advise. All credit to them for doing so.
Although an enthusiast forum and you make it sound a tad elitist, there are many members with cheaper bikes that don't appear to have the problems.
For my own part, I didn't buy cheap out of lack of knowledge. On the contrary, I bought cheap because experience has taught me all that glitters is not gold, high prices aren't a measure of quality and don't ensure reliability as many threads can confirm. Also my knowledge and ability ensures I'll have little trouble maintaining my cheap ebike in perfectly serviceable condition indefinitely and certainly as long as any other, what can possibly go wrong that can't be fixed or improved?
I'm not convinced that all the more expensive bikes use superior components to some of the cheaper ones. Take Wisper and Oxygen, both use Suzhou Bafang motors as does my own, which although good are cheap.
Alloy frames are pretty much the order of the day for all ebikes nowadays. Controllers are pretty standard equipment, which more or less leaves the battery, although of differing qualities, the best isn't without failures.
In fact, take away the components that make most ebike's electric and your left with a pretty much average bike. The cost of those electric components does not warrant the high prices of many ebike's.
I'm not so sure owners of expensive ebikes use them any more than anyone else, that implies cheap bike owners have nowhere to go?

 

[Mussels]

Its great that several suppliers frequent this forum and offer support and advise. All credit to them for doing so.
Although an enthusiast forum and you make it sound a tad elitist, there are many members with cheaper bikes that don't appear to have the problems.
For my own part, I didn't buy cheap out of lack of knowledge. On the contrary, I bought cheap because experience has taught me all that glitters is not gold, high prices aren't a measure of quality and don't ensure reliability as many threads can confirm. Also my knowledge and ability ensures I'll have little trouble maintaining my cheap ebike in perfectly serviceable condition indefinitely and certainly as long as any other, what can possibly go wrong that can't be fixed or improved?
I'm not convinced that all the more expensive bikes use superior components to some of the cheaper ones. Take Wisper and Oxygen, both use Suzhou Bafang motors as does my own, which although good are cheap.
Alloy frames are pretty much the order of the day for all ebikes nowadays. Controllers are pretty standard equipment, which more or less leaves the battery, although of differing qualities, the best isn't without failures.
In fact, take away the components that make most ebike's electric and your left with a pretty much average bike. The cost of those electric components does not warrant the high prices of many ebike's.
I'm not so sure owners of expensive ebikes use them any more than anyone else, that implies cheap bike owners have nowhere to go?

Many of the questions are regarding things that are simple, the type of thing that you don't need help with. You got what you paid for and those posting questions on here are getting what they paid for, it doesn't matter how they get their support when they need it.

 

[flecc]

Its great that several suppliers frequent this forum and offer support and advise. All credit to them for doing so.
Although an enthusiast forum and you make it sound a tad elitist, there are many members with cheaper bikes that don't appear to have the problems.
For my own part, I didn't buy cheap out of lack of knowledge. On the contrary, I bought cheap because experience has taught me all that glitters is not gold, high prices aren't a measure of quality and don't ensure reliability as many threads can confirm. Also my knowledge and ability ensures I'll have little trouble maintaining my cheap ebike in perfectly serviceable condition indefinitely and certainly as long as any other, what can possibly go wrong that can't be fixed or improved?
I'm not convinced that all the more expensive bikes use superior components to some of the cheaper ones. Take Wisper and Oxygen, both use Suzhou Bafang motors as does my own, which although good are cheap.
Alloy frames are pretty much the order of the day for all ebikes nowadays. Controllers are pretty standard equipment, which more or less leaves the battery, although of differing qualities, the best isn't without failures.
In fact, take away the components that make most ebike's electric and your left with a pretty much average bike. The cost of those electric components does not warrant the high prices of many ebike's.
I'm not so sure owners of expensive ebikes use them any more than anyone else, that implies cheap bike owners have nowhere to go?

I think there was a preformed bias in your question as this reply shows. I agree that cheaper hub motor bikes can be just as reliable as the expensive ones since they often use similar components and the same make of motor and controller. Batteries are a different story though, and as the first poster ever in this forum from new and seeing almost every post since, I can assure you that there's masses of evidence that you really do tend to get what you pay for there.

There are other issues too, for many the better support that expensive makes often offer is very important. Then there's the warranty lengths, cheap bikes frequently have short warranties, especially for batteries. Another important issue where many have been caught out time after time is replacement battery availability a year or two after buying. Companies who charge realistic prices can both last longer and afford to carry stocks of the essentials and often a full range of spares, something certainly not true of most cheap e-bike suppliers.

I could go on, but experience shows I'm often wasting my time where this issue is concerned.
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[onmebike]

I think there was a preformed bias in your question as this reply shows. I agree that cheaper hub motor bikes can be just as reliable as the expensive ones since they often use similar components and the same make of motor and controller. Batteries are a different story though, and as the first poster ever in this forum from new and seeing almost every post since, I can assure you that there's masses of evidence that you really do tend to get what you pay for there.

There are other issues too, for many the better support that expensive makes often offer is very important. Then there's the warranty lengths, cheap bikes frequently have short warranties, especially for batteries. Another important issue where many have been caught out time after time is replacement battery availability a year or two after buying. Companies who charge realistic prices can both last longer and afford to carry stocks of the essentials and often a full range of spares, something certainly not true of most cheap e-bike suppliers.

I could go on, but experience shows I'm often wasting my time where this issue is concerned.
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Its not bias, merely an observation. My view isn't restricted to ebike's, its a pretty general view of all the available consumer technology. I don't accept you have to pay top prices for good quality.
Many of todays highly regarded manufacturers started with cheap introductions into the marketplace, its a proven method for success.
As you know, one of my bikes is a Cyclamatic, I actually bought three when the price was discounted and have since sold two to friends for what I paid for them. I also bought a spare battery. So far the only one problem has been a faulty battery which wouldn't charge, SportHQ changed it without question. I can't fault their aftersales service, their bonus scheme which credits you 5% of all you spend and their frequent discounts.
Many years ago I discovered that many of the high street electronics brands, both high and low end, were manufactured in the same couple of factories in Japan, I know this to be true of China today, its pretty common practice.
I have little doubt this also applies to the ebike industry.
My experience and knowledge of ebike's is miniscule compared to yours, they hold little interest for me, simply because, irrespective of cost, they are what they are, a means of transport, a bike with an electric motor. The basic design has changed little in my lifetime, so how much better can one be over another that warrants a £1000+ difference in price?

 

[flecc]

Its not bias, merely an observation. My view isn't restricted to ebike's, its a pretty general view of all the available consumer technology. I don't accept you have to pay top prices for good quality.
Many of todays highly regarded manufacturers started with cheap introductions into the marketplace, its a proven method for success.
As you know, one of my bikes is a Cyclamatic, I actually bought three when the price was discounted and have since sold two to friends for what I paid for them. I also bought a spare battery. So far the only one problem has been a faulty battery which wouldn't charge, SportHQ changed it without question. I can't fault their aftersales service, their bonus scheme which credits you 5% of all you spend and their frequent discounts.
Many years ago I discovered that many of the high street electronics brands, both high and low end, were manufactured in the same couple of factories in Japan, I know this to be true of China today, its pretty common practice.
I have little doubt this also applies to the ebike industry.
My experience and knowledge of ebike's is miniscule compared to yours, they hold little interest for me, simply because, irrespective of cost, they are what they are, a means of transport, a bike with an electric motor. The basic design has changed little in my lifetime, so how much better can one be over another? Within legal restrictions.

As said though, there's much of your contentions I agree with, but you haven't in any way answered all the advantages of buying at higher prices that I pointed out in my answer. You've basically repeated your previous contentions in a different way, which seems like a preformed bias to me.

I've never argued that all cheap bike suppliers have failings, but the majority do and this forum has shown that very clearly time after time. SportsHQ are an obvious exception to date, but as the old saying goes, one swallow doth not a summer make.

As for the cheap battery issue I raised, you've proved my point, one in three failed is hardly a success. Lithium battery failures were quite common in the early days of their use, but the better manufacturers selling higher priced batteries have overcome those problems with very much more reliable and better performing products. This certainly isn't true of all the cheap bike batteries, often still using the older less dependable chemistries.
.

 

[NRG]

There's more to this than just the basic components of the bike. As Flecc points out the battery is a major differentiator but then you need to also add in extended warranty (2 years) of the more expensive bikes, the 'high street' presence, face to face service and brand (which translates into better resale value)....all of these add to the cost but ultimately should provide for a better ownership experience in the long run.

 

[lemmy]

I don't accept you have to pay top prices for good quality.

Quality comes in many forms. I said here before but I'll repeat a notice a dealer has in his shop.

"We offer top quality products, lowest prices, best after sales service. Pick any two from three."

You seem to be making an inflexible rule out of a generalisation. It is true that you do not always have to pay top prices for good quality. It is equally true that sometimes you do.

 

[JuicyBike]

There is little room for comment from me here, as I agree with pretty much everything that all contributors have said. However…

There are certainly a range of bikes and qualities of both bikes and businesses.

The main difficulty is that the whole field is relatively new and customers have little experience to draw upon. When I bought my first car it was my dad who guided me in what to avoid and what features to look-for.
It does bug me that the term "Cheap Imports" is used so indiscriminately. We ban the term cheap from our shop and when our customers use it ask them to use "good value" instead.

There are dealers who buy a container of bikes from alibaba and attempt to sell them without any input or adding any value.

Perhaps dividing dealers into those who visit, monitor and directly employ staff within their carefully selected Chinese factories and those who don't might better indicate when to use "cheap" and "good value".

We have even visited the accommodation provided by our factories for their workers to ensure a decent level of welfare is in place. Our main outlet is also a Fair-Trade shop and our business model is as complex and individual to us, as it is to the next Chinese importer.

Sorry for the rant - I wasn't expecting it either!

I think my point is that we are still in a fledgling industry with a variety of interested parties, all with individual motivations, ambitions and concerns, and all of us impossible to sweep into just one or two categories.
I see BEBA in particular as one means of distinguishing at least the intent of any brand or manufacturer. I am a little concerned on the other hand that BEBA seems stalled at present. Any updates or info anyone?

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

There is little room for comment from me here, as I agree with pretty much everything that all contributors have said. However…

There are certainly a range of bikes and qualities of both bikes and businesses.

The main difficulty is that the whole field is relatively new and customers have little experience to draw upon. When I bought my first car it was my dad who guided me in what to avoid and what features to look-for.
It does bug me that the term "Cheap Imports" is used so indiscriminately. We ban the term cheap from our shop and when our customers use it ask them to use "good value" instead.

There are dealers who buy a container of bikes from alibaba and attempt to sell them without any input or adding any value.

+1 from me, thank you Bob

All the best

Andrew
Oxygen Bicycles

 

[onmebike]

As said though, there's much of your contentions I agree with, but you haven't in any way answered all the advantages of buying at higher prices that I pointed out in my answer. You've basically repeated your previous contentions in a different way, which seems like a preformed bias to me.

I've never argued that all cheap bike suppliers have failings, but the majority do and this forum has shown that very clearly time after time. SportsHQ are an obvious exception to date, but as the old saying goes, one swallow doth not a summer make.

As for the cheap battery issue I raised, you've proved my point, one in three failed is hardly a success. Lithium battery failures were quite common in the early days of their use, but the better manufacturers selling higher priced batteries have overcome those problems with very much more reliable and better performing products. This certainly isn't true of all the cheap bike batteries, often still using the older less dependable chemistries.
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I didn't realise from your comments that you expected answer's. Now I know I'll give it a go.
Cheap batteries. What do we regard as a cheap ebike battery in the UK? Lets say £250.00. Is that really cheap? I don't think so. But compared to one's available for £400+ I suppose it must be.
What does that extra £150+ get you? Thats a little difficult to determine because barring a fault developing, the value of a battery is never really evident until its life is near over.
Its not unusual in high volume manufacturing for items to be graded into various quality. I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to the battery industry? The same cells, bar a slight defect or variation being labelled under
different name's or unbranded. One would hope this isn't the case for ebike batteries because of their high prices, but can we be sure?
I'm not saying buying cheap or value battery's isn't without risk, but neither are high end batteries, they all have varying degree's of failure. If buying cheap pays off, you've had a result. Whereas the best you can expect from buying high end, is getting what you've paid for. Which in my experience never quite lives up to the fantastic claims.
No matter what the price range, buying from a reliable source and getting a written warranty is about all you can do to protect yourself.

Customer support. I can only speak from experience and I've not actually come up against bad customer support in regard to ebike's, nor would I tolerate it. I find that bad customer support is often down to a supplier chancing their arm, a little nuisance pressure often resolve's the issue. Especially in a busy shop.

Warranty's. Doesn't take much working out really. Irrespective of price, purchases made in the UK must be fit for purpose. Most electrical goods have the standard 12mths, although I believe under EU law thats extended to 2yrs.
SportsHQ give 12mths on bike/battery, when they replaced my battery I got a new 12 month warranty with it.
I'm not surprised some suppliers offer a two year warranty on their battery. Its either covered by the manufacturer or allowed for in the initial price of the bike, its hardly free.

Battery and spare's availability. Again, not something I've come up against. I agree that for purchasers of high end ebikes this is important because they're paying for it. But, being pretty universal, most spares can be sourced from somewhere. Buying cheap has its benefits in my opinion.

Finally, I have to correct you on my failed battery, which was a bms problem and bears no reflection on cell quality. It was 1 of 4 not 3. I bought a spare. But in reality, it could be, one of hundreds or even thousands, depending how many bike's and batterys SportHQ and their sister company GolfoutletUSA have sold? I may have had the only duff one.

Hope you've enjoyed the thread Tony? I like to keep you on your toe's. What do I know about ebike's? Apart from owning a folder, a hybrid mtb, a conversion in the process and a trailer. I haven't ridden a bike in close to 45yrs. I'll get round to it one day.

 

[flecc]

What does that extra £150+ get you? Thats a little difficult to determine because barring a fault developing, the value of a battery is never really evident until its life is near over. Its not unusual in high volume manufacturing for items to be graded into various quality. I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to the battery industry? The same cells, bar a slight defect or variation being labelled under different name's or unbranded.

This definitely does not apply, the better batteries come from the best manufacturers, people like Advance and Panasonic. They don't make cheap product to use below par cells. The price difference is partly to do with manufacturing quality, but also and often more to recover the research costs they have which the cheap manufacturers don't have. As I've already said above, they commonly use the older technologies

I've not actually come up against bad customer support in regard to e-bike's, nor would I tolerate it.

You've been lucky, bad service has actually been the norm in this industry in the past and despite some improvement is still widespread.

Warranty's. Doesn't take much working out really. Irrespective of price, purchases made in the UK must be fit for purpose. Most electrical goods have the standard 12mths, although I believe under EU law thats extended to 2yrs. SportsHQ give 12mths on bike/battery, when they replaced my battery I got a new 12 month warranty with it.

Doesn't apply to batteries, they are consumables so don't have the protection in law that some hardware electrical goods have. Only the manufacturer warranty offers decent cover. Examples of consumables are TV/monitor CRT tubes and electronic valves, tyres, brake pads and blocks, batteries.

I'm not surprised some suppliers offer a two year warranty on their battery. Its either covered by the manufacturer or allowed for in the initial price of the bike, its hardly free.

Not so, the later cell chemistries resulting from research advances have brought longer life and more consistent reliability so longer warranties become more viable.

Finally, I have to correct you on my failed battery, which was a bms problem and bears no reflection on cell quality.

You haven't corrected me, I said battery failure and the BMS is an internal, integral and essential part of lithium e-bike batteries. Your battery failed.

I've actually never heard of a BMS failure on one of the top batteries, but there's been a few on the cheaper ones, tending to prove my point.
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[onmebike]

This definitely does not apply, the better batteries come from the best manufacturers, people like Advance and Panasonic. They don't make cheap product to use below par cells. The price difference is partly to do with manufacturing quality, but also and often more to recover the research costs they have which the cheap manufacturers don't have. As I've already said above, they commonly use the older technologies

Panasonic also produce some of the cheapest battery's available. Which is possibly where their research is funded from. Take a look in any Pound shop.
Advance and Panasonic, like all manufacturers will have rejects, cells that don't quite make the grade. I doubt they'll simply scrap them, rather sell them off as unbranded to cheap battery manufacturer's.

You've been lucky, bad service has actually been the norm in this industry in the past and despite some improvement is still widespread.

Although having little experience with ebike's at the time, I do have an engineering background both electrical and mechanical. I also did a little research into the company.

Doesn't apply to batteries, they are consumables so don't have the protection in law that some hardware electrical goods have. Only the manufacturer warranty offers decent cover. Examples of consumables are TV/monitor CRT tubes and electronic valves, tyres, brake pads and blocks, batteries.

As you say, battery's are consumable's and have no protection in law.
That surely make's the manufacturer's/suppliers warranty un-enforceable in law?
A warranty state's something like, Guaranteed against manufacturing defects, guaranteed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity for a minimum of two years from date of purchase etc etc. There will also be a statement of the warranty conditions, i.e. Providing all manufacturer's guidelines have been strictly adhered to, the battery is not exposed to excessive heat/cold or been dropped or mistreated, Is only charged with the supplied charger, In the event of a claim all shipping costs are the responsibilty of the consumer, the manufacturer will repair or replace with one of similar specification, at their own discretion etc.
Imagine your 14mth old battery is only giving you 65% of its original range, so you return it under warranty. The supplier is unlikely to take your word for it and hand over a £400+ replacement battery. He'll be within his rights to investigate your claims even if that means returning it to the manufacturer in China for testing. Which all takes time. My point is, a determined supplier could easily get out of the warranty.


Not so, the later cell chemistries resulting from research advances have brought longer life and more consistent reliability so longer warranties become more viable.

Longer warranties are pretty meaningless if they can't be enforced or have get out clause's.

You haven't corrected me, I said battery failure and the BMS is an internal, integral and essential part of lithium e-bike batteries. Your battery failed.

Thats isn't what I was correcting. You said 1 of 3 failed? It was actually 1 of 4? 3 supplied with bikes and a spare. But as stated this may have been the only faulty one ever supplied by SportsHQ so it may have been 1 of 1000's.
Going on your logic, if a Panasonic owner has a faulty battery and its the only one they have, the ratio is 1 of 1 failures, far worse than 1 of 3 by my calculations?
The BMS isn't an integral part of the battery because the battery would function perfectly well without it. I could have charged it through the output lead thus bypassing the BMS.

I've actually never heard of a BMS failure on one of the top batteries, but there's been a few on the cheaper ones, tending to prove my point.

As you've never heard of a BMS failure on the top battery, I have to assume something else fails.
Only a FEW failures on cheap one's serve's to prove the majority are Okay.

 

[flecc]

I'll just give two challenge examples and then I'll give up against the perverse wriggling around what I've said.

Panasonic do not make cheap e-bike batteries, the cheap cells you mention are small ones produced in their multi-millions, completely irrelevant to e-bikes.

The BMS is emphatically a part of an e-bike battery, the fact that it can operate without it is totally irrelevant again if it was fitted from new and provides valuable protection giving longer life. Cars can go places without brakes, are they really not part of a car?

I won't waste time going through all the rest of the similar examples of distortion, it's not what I come in here for.

The end.
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[onmebike]

I'll just give two challenge examples and then I'll give up against the perverse wriggling around what I've said.

Panasonic do not make cheap e-bike batteries, the cheap cells you mention are small ones produced in their multi-millions, completely irrelevant to e-bikes.

The BMS is emphatically a part of an e-bike battery, the fact that it can operate without it is totally irrelevant again if it was fitted from new and provides valuable protection giving longer life. Cars can go places without brakes, are they really not part of a car?

I won't waste time going through all the rest of the similar examples of distortion, it's not what I come in here for.

The end.
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I've never once claimed Panasonic do make cheap ebike batteries, they will however have sub standard cell's pulled off the production line by quality control. Usually, when defects are detected the whole line is pulled. Rather than scrap them at a total loss they may sell them as unbranded seconds.

The BMS is a necessary protective component of the ebike battery in the same way, using your example, the brakes are a necessary component of the car.
Good, we agree thus far. When your car brake's fail, do you write the car off as a failure? No of course you don't. Likewise, when a BMS fails, the battery isn't written off as a failure either. The battery is perfectly serviceable once the BMS or its faulty component is replaced.

Example's of distortion? I've been pretty plain spoken. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[aseb]

Late entry-as a former QA Manager and BS5750/ISO9000 Lead Assessor. Quality is fitness for purpose, not necessarily the best that a thing can be.
Fitness for purpose (FFP) can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, in this case the manufacturers idea of FFP will be linked strongly to cost of manufacture, acceptable failure rates in their opinion for that application and will include things like customer expectation. And profit levels. There are obviously many variables that will affect the manufacturers decisions, including estimated sales at various price levels.
Even the tightest quality levels will have a Acceptable Quality Leve (AQL)- few things in reality have an AQL of 0.00% (Accept 0 Reject 1 for any batch) except, rightfully, life critical things like some medical devices, some incorrect items/contamination (a mouse in your breakfast cerial), and similar. Tighter AQL's meaning stricter quality control and checks adding to the item cost. The trick is finding the right level for your own (intended) market.
Other things- eg variation in colour of a frame may not be so important, but one manufacturer may set tighter limits on acceptability than another company for a similar parameter. An example- Hair Dye companies like Clairol, L'Oreal, Schwartzkopf etc will have a high quality standard for printing- the colours on the packs must closely meet the buyers expectations (Many people will probably know someone or heard stories of someones hair turning green, red or some other unexpected result that ruined their wedding/holiday....). Setting similar colour tolerances for a pack of a supermarkets own brand biscuits would prohibitively add to the products cost, they just wouldn't do it.

Everyone has a different view of what quality is acceptable- from manufacturer to manufacturer, from one customer/user to another, and more importantly to most of us between yourself and your bikes manufacturer.
It's very hard to pin it down. And to objectively say who has the wrong view- all of the views are right from each of points of view- everyone has different influences.

 

[dan]

the BMS is an internal, integral and essential part of lithium e-bike batteries.

Flecc a question; I understand that powabyke do not use a BMS in their lithium X bykes, if they don't need one how can it be an essential part of the battery