EBikes are too expensive?

[Caph]

I've just been thinking.

A decent motor/controller/battery kit can be picked up for 300-400 GBP retail.

A very decent MTB will set you back 300-400GBP retail and we are talking much better spec and quality that any ebike on the market with all premium branded parts.

So naturally this leads to me to wonder how any ebike can cost over 800 GBP? I've even seem some ebikes selling at around 1300 GBP and the bike alone (excluding battery/controller/motor etc) is definitely not in the 300-400GBP retail range, probably nearer 200GBP, which would put the "e" parts at about 1100GBP retail!!!

I notice that you can pick up a quality 37V 10Ah Lithium battery pack for under £300, so I'm guessing it can't be down to the battery either.

 

[flecc]

It's sales volume and after sales support Caph.

That MTB alone will sell in much greater quantities than an e-bike. To give you some idea, 2 million bikes are sold in the UK every year, against 15 to 20 thousand e-bikes, which is under one percent. The MTB will have virtually no support costs for the supplier since ordinary bikes are routinely prepared and serviced by the bike shops selling them, but e-bikes do entail support costs for suppliers/importers/manufacturers. An example again, after trouble with earlier batteries eZee supplied well over 1000 free batteries to customers worldwide, no mean expense.

Volume also affects the margins that handlers have to add. There's a certain minimum cost to running any supply enterprise, and the smaller the number of items sold, the larger the amount that has to be added to each in trading margin to cover the business costs.

Associated costs like website, literature, sales and show appearances all have to be added to the relatively small number of e-bikes that each supplier sells, again adding appreciably to each bike's unit cost.

An added cost for those who supply through bike shops is that bike retailers often rightly demand high margins on slow moving items like e-bikes.

I know many of these suppliers and some in manufacturing, but none of them are driving luxury cars or living particularly luxurious lives. Of course anyone is free to take up this perceived opportunity, but the odds are stacked against becoming wealthy and there's a high risk of failure.
.

 

[nigel]

I always thought electric bikes are overpriced but i suppose as it still early days in there development it seems to be the battery technology that is most expensive it cant be long untill we have a £2000 electric bike in the uk.Nigel.

 

[flecc]

it cant be long untill we have a £2000 electric bike in the uk.Nigel.

Here now Nigel, the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S arriving shortly is £1995.

There's also the BikeTech Flyer models handled by Vita Electric of Hampstead and those models have been up to over £3000 a long time ago. I believe one of them is around £4000 now.

A lot of the trouble with prices at the moment is the state of exchange rates with the pound being very weak. Eventually when we get out of the present economic mess we'll see the prices becoming much more reasonable, but that's probably a long way off, years rather than months, so not worth waiting for.
.

 

[aaannndddyyy]

I totally agree about the price of electric bike prices being to high, I now make all my electric bike out of new and second hand parts at a fraction of the cost of a retail electric bikes, with the advantage of being able to construct my bikes to my pacific specifications and needs, whether for speed, distance road or off-road winter use or a mixture of the above, for example I have a Heinzmann 7 speed road bike that cost less than £150 pounds to make and has very similar specs to the £1750 eBike of very similar design, an off road bike that will out perfume just about any shop electric bike in today’s market, speed distance acceleration reliability and price and should be good for 8 years or 33.000 miles. If you want the comfort of a 1 or 2 year warranty and the ability to take your bike to a shop to have bits replaced then you have little choice than to spend your hard eared cash on shop prices including there rent employment cost overheads and profit margins but it you have a brain and a little DIY knowledge then save yourself a bundle and learn something at the same time.

 

[flecc]

It's absolutely right that doing things that way saves money Andy, but someone has to buy those items new in the first place for you to benefit from them second hand. At least half the population has to buy new to sustain an adequate flow of usable second hand parts and the Heinzmann kit alone costs well over £1000 now, equal to the price of many complete e-bikes. And of course, new battery prices are almost unavoidable for second hand builds as well as new.
.

 

[Miles]

with the advantage of being able to construct my bikes to my pacific specifications.....

High resistance to salt-spray corrosion ?

 

[aaannndddyyy]

High resistance to salt-spray corrosion ?

Good seals and WD40 essential.

someone has to buy those items new in the first place for you to benefit from them second hand. At least half the population has to buy new to sustain an adequate flow of usable second hand parts
.

I take your point; but there is a huge second hand market out there, right now there are over 2.000 SH bikes and bike parts on EBay alone. I wouldn’t touch 80% of the new ebikes out there at 20% of there asking price, then again I do love a bargain.

 

[fishingpaul]

First point true electric bike frames are made slightly longer,to allow for the battery to go in the best place,under the saddle this also requires a longer than normal chain all adding extra costs,there are some reasonable quality ready to go electric bikes available complete for around £500 on ebay,it would be very hard to buy a motor and battery and build your own bike for less than this.to build your own bike, using a reasonable motor kit for around £300, add a lithium battery for around £300,plus a battery charger for around £80,then add a reasonable bike for £200,we are already at £880 pounds to build your own bike,which will also require a lot of work and you will end up with a battery mounted on a rack or in a saddle bag,not the best place for a battery.so £1100 plus for a quality purpose built electric bike is not so bad.

 

[Caph]

a reasonable motor kit for around £300, add a lithium battery for around £300,plus a battery charger for around £80

Paul, are you sure you've got your figures right?

I originally stated "A decent motor/controller/battery kit can be picked up for 300-400 GBP retail." and I stick by that. You however are saying that a motor, battery (obviously plus charger) and controller will cost you just under 700GBP. This is a huge difference.

 

[Caph]

Flecc, interesting points that I hadn't considered.

 

[Alex728]

I didn't realise so few new units were being sold! I think it is rather like the situation with computers in the 1980s, early adopters are having to pay a premium price and also act as (unpaid!) product testers. (I can see why people perceive that the e-bikes are expensive as there seem to be a lot of teething problems, ironically with the more pricey models!)

That said there are affordable if less powerful e-bikes like the Powacycle Salisbury, as well as the "BMW class" Kalhkoffs and similar - If you remember the 80s IT industry I'm sure you remember how you had a combination of premium priced machines and more affordable ones.

I'd like to see price drops in the segment just above that (Wisper 905 se and equivalents) but at the same time these companies need to stay afloat - and with the recession unless loads more people start buying these as replacements for motor cars and we get sales trends in the UK similar to those in Far Eastern countries, there could be the risk the that companies will go under and the industry even stagnate...

I do think Andy is doing some wonderful stuff, but he has also put in a lot of personal resources, his own considerable knowledge, presumably a well equipped workshop, extra cash for experiments and most importantly time... and he plays down his own skills, (British innovators/inventors do tend to do this)

Building even a normal bicycle would be a daunting task to many, particularly younger people - my generation (who grew up in the 80s) was perhaps the last to be taught anything approaching decent practical/engineering skills. When I get closer to / am in my forties I might try to build an e-bike but at present the demands of the day job and normal life mean I have to make do with the ready built machines..

Also I suspect its a big business risk for even the Chinese and Japanese in the factories, the factories building e-bike parts could just as easily be used to build a fridge or a microwave or a MP3 player all of which have more of a guaranteed return... I agree with flecc that those who can afford it need to support what is a fledgling industry by purchasing the newer items..

 

[flecc]

the factories building e-bike parts could just as easily be used to build a fridge or a microwave or a MP3 player all of which have more of a guaranteed return...

I made this point recently concerning Panasonic. Although their e-bikes with their motor unit sold well in Japan, in the export market only Giant tried to market the motor units on a larger scale in the Lafree series, but over nearly 7 years worldwide only achieved sales 0f 20,000, a measly less than 3,000 a year in the whole world.

As I observed earlier, the TZ3 camera they introduced recently promptly sold in it's multi millions worldwide in the first year at around £250 each, with the TZ5 follow-up model now doing the same. That's Panasonic's sort of business, and it's little wonder they put so little into developing the e-bike side with just one model revision this decade. If e-bikes sold in the quantities common to many other products, there'd be new updated motor units every year with a range of functionality choices from them.

Sales are on the up now, but they are still small in global terms and we have to hope the threatened recession doesn't set back the expansion.
.

 

[flecc]

Paul, are you sure you've got your figures right?

I originally stated "A decent motor/controller/battery kit can be picked up for 300-400 GBP retail." and I stick by that. You however are saying that a motor, battery (obviously plus charger) and controller will cost you just under 700GBP. This is a huge difference.

I think Paul is quoting the retail prices for these items, and his total of £880 is quite accurate if you compare it to the "Voyager" bike mentioned in another thread. Supplied by 720cycles, ignoring the introductory offer, it's future price is £899, very close to Paul's figure. Now consider these points about it:

It's stripped, having no mudguards, carrier or lights, Bob having to add those.

It's a new venture for this supplier and it's usual for newcomers to underprice until reality hits home, basically underestimating the real costs of this sort of business. I remember when Sustain Cycles came in with their e-bikes a bit over a year ago, their Halley model at £499. They disappeared from the market shortly after, but have now re-entered it for another try. The Halley is now £699, illustrating my point.

Likewise Powacycle came into the market at very low prices, their popular Salisbury and Windsor models at £499. They soon had to bring the battery technology up to date, upping the price to £599, and the latest price now is £699.

But despite those 40% price leaps, I can assure you that their margins are very tight.
.

 

[Blew it]

The current economic climate in Britain, is of course a source of great worry for many. In particular, those with young families and mortgages. For those people, the decision to purchase an electric bike at this time really has to be a belt and braces job regarding reliability and effective warranties. Permissions may also be required from others who have access to the family cash pot.

At the other extreme, are those of us who are now retired without mortgages and the children have moved out. ( although sometimes not far enough away for comfort). We are of course, the ones most likely to don the first adopters hat and take advantage of some absolute bargains currently available.

This is one "box of bits" I'm very interested in.

Shimano Tourney 6 speed
Adjustable ahead stem
Lightweight alloy frame with unusual duplex top tubes/seatstays
Diecast rear dropouts
Weld on hardpoints for bottle cage and pump bracket
Front suspension plus sprung seatpost
Disc brakes front and rear (the best for riding muddy tracks)

Add to that: A strong possibility of a Suzhou Bafang motor.

Here's a few other pointers I tend to take into consideration. This machine has just recently appeared on the British market and is also now available in the US and Canada. To me, that means whoever makes that battery, It's going to be fresh and hopefully using the latest cells. It could be a Phylion (same charger) but wrong casing, or it might turn out to be the less than reliable Lishen quickly rejected by WEVCO, although as I recall Lishen bailed out of EV applications following that.

If you could persuade the seller to include delivery in the buy it now price, you would receive a potentially excellent machine or, at the very least, a box of very useable brand new bits and pieces.

I wonder if he would!.................

 

[flecc]

To me, that means whoever makes that battery, It's going to be fresh and hopefully using the latest cells. It could be a Phylion (same charger) but wrong casing, or it might turn out to be the less than reliable Lishen quickly rejected by WEVCO, although as I recall Lishen bailed out of EV applications following that.

That casing has been around for quite while in the "parts bin" with both 24 and 36 volt versions, but I feel sure it will have up to date cells, the last thing any supplier wanting is warranty claims and disputes with bike makers. The HP charger is common to many e-bike makes, HighPower being the largest manufacturer of these, and Wisper are now using the same one.

There are other manufacturers of EV lithium batteries in China, Phylion, big of course as part of the large Lenovo group, Lishen, Advance and one new entry, and there's the Japanese manufacturing in various countries, Sanyo now incorporated into Panasonic, and others such as Toshiba and Yamaha.

They were nearly all unreliable for a while, cobalt based ones catching fire, manganese based ones failing to deliver enough current, but now they're getting on top of the technical problems, sometimes using compound cathodes and/or polymer construction. Despite some success with the Li Ping batteries, it's lithium-iron (LiFePO4) that's now the new and unreliable kid on the block which manufacturers are mainly avoiding for the present.
.

 

[John Fleet]

It's stripped, having no mudguards, carrier or lights, Bob having to add those.


.

is it?
"Kindly delivered by the suppliers, it came fitted with sport mudguards, a six LED headlight incorporating an electric horn."

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the correction John, I'd misread and was relying on the photos.

However, no rear light, useless sports mudguards which Bob replaced with proper ones, and no carrier, so what I said was largely true still, and no comparison with mainstream e-bikes which usually come fully equipped.
.

 

[Blew it]

I'll be darned!

I've just found a machine using the same frame as the one I linked to above, It's the eZee Cadence minus triple crown forks.

 

[flecc]

I've just found a machine using the same frame as the one I linked to above, It's the eZee Cadence minus triple crown forks.

Only the frame common to them though, the Cadence coming with all the usual full eZee equipment. In fact it's only a special order model for those who want the cruiser styling with the Sprint electrical side.
.