Electric Car Confusion

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Mmmm...maybe the BYD is growing on me, although I prefer the Mitsubishi mini people carrier style of vehicle, more practical IMO

are these available in China yet? any one like to hazard a guess as to price?

it may well be my next car if available in a year or two!
The BYD is in full production and selling in China, though sales are at a slower rate than forecast. That might speed up it's export to other markets, and the very large factory has plenty of expansion available.

I think they were speaking of about £14,000, which would be competitive in the e-car market, but I don't think they'd done much homework on that price.

The petrol Mitsubishi i-car has been available in the UK in very limited numbers for 2008/9, but the electric version has been put back two years running due to lithium battery problems. Equally lacking in confidence after delaying the introduction three years in succession, Smart have issued just 100 Smart For-two e-cars to selected users for trials.
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eddieo

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Jul 7, 2008
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The BYD is in full production and selling in China, though sales are at a slower rate than forecast. That might speed up it's export to other markets, and the very large factory has plenty of expansion available.

I think they were speaking of about £14,000, which would be competitive in the e-car market, but I don't think they'd done much homework on that price.

The petrol Mitsubishi i-car has been available in the UK in very limited numbers for 2008/9, but the electric version has been put back two years running due to lithium battery problems. Equally lacking in confidence after delaying the introduction three years in succession, Smart have issued just 100 Smart For-two e-cars to selected users for trials.
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You can forget about Europe for a reasonable priced E Car I rekon........What with the mini @ 24k:eek: and the Smart only available @ £450 a month on lease (presumably because the price is horrific) Our only hope is the Chinese for a practical spec'ed car :rolleyes:

whats happened to the "air" car I wonder.........
 

flecc

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whats happened to the "air" car I wonder.........
I don't think it's ever going to be efficient enough. Compressing air for power is a very energy consuming process since so much energy is lost as heat in the process. Since it's also short range, there's no point when batteries can do the same job with much less energy input. There's probably not much in it on weight too, since ultra high pressure air cylinders tend to be rather heavy.
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Mussels

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I don't think it's ever going to be efficient enough. Compressing air for power is a very energy consuming process since so much energy is lost as heat in the process. Since it's also short range, there's no point when batteries can do the same job with much less energy input. There's probably not much in it on weight too, since ultra high pressure air cylinders tend to be rather heavy.
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In summer the gas bottles could be linked up to a cooling vest, built in cooling as a by product would almost sell it to me.
 

eddieo

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Jul 7, 2008
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while driving home from work this morning musing on the absurdity of existence.. ....I thought, wouldn't it be nice never to have to pull into one of these gas stations again. But powerful vested interests are unlikely to let it happen without a fight.......
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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In summer the gas bottles could be linked up to a cooling vest, built in cooling as a by product would almost sell it to me.
That's great in the English summer, but what about the other 51 weeks of the year. :D
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flecc

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while driving home from work this morning musing on the absurdity of existence.. ....I thought, wouldn't it be nice never to have to pull into one of these gas stations again. But powerful vested interests are unlikely to let it happen without a fight.......
This won't be a problem Eddie, for a couple of reasons. Firstly the timescale to get enough infrastructure to supply electric cars to replace all IC engined ones, secondly the way the oil market works.

It's going to take at least 50 years to get that infrastructure, allowing plenty of time for the oil companies to gradually adjust, and the oil market works by restricting supplies when income drops, forcing the price up. That supply restriction will be aided over that 50 years by the diminishing reserves anyway.

What this means is a gradual transition from bulk supplying at low prices for vehicle use to very much smaller volume supplies to the chemical and plastics industries at very high prices, no longer up to around $100 dollars a barrel but to probably over $1000. This will maintain healthy revenues from consumers for somewhat smaller oil companies.

We have an example of this already. Many years ago ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) was a world giant in the chemical industry, but they found themselves increasingly under pressure from third world countries bulk producing cheap chemicals like soda and those for fertilisers. Instead of stupidly fighting this, they took a far more intelligent decision, they sold off their bulk production sites and bought back in large volumes of shares, massively downsizing the company. But that didn't mean poor income, for what they then did was specialise in the difficult to produce high tech chemicals which the third world couldn't produce, and which sold at very high prices. Thus they had a smaller number of still very satisfied shareholders and an easier company to run.

I'm sure that's the model the oil companies will follow, effectively forced into it by the way the market is run by OPEC and others.

Large dominant companies can have their businesses crushed, and there's no better example of this than Eastman Kodak. For over half a century they absolutely dominated the worldwide photographic trade, acting in very dictatorial ways with retailers who couldn't survive without Kodak products. There was nothing any politician, businessman or financier could do about their dominance. But then the digital camera was invented and Kodak saw their massive and very lucrative worldwide consumable business collapse well within a decade, leaving them a small fish in a rapidly drying out pond.
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eddieo

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I want one!

So, do you think the Chinese are our only hope of a practical and affordable E Car? and when do you think they will appear here?

a range of 160 miles would be fine for us........But I saw talk of a 15 minute, 80% fast charge? would this only be possible at dedicated garages?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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So, do you think the Chinese are our only hope of a practical and affordable E Car? and when do you think they will appear here?

a range of 160 miles would be fine for us........But I saw talk of a 15 minute, 80% fast charge? would this only be possible at dedicated garages?
I don't think they are only hope, but they will be in a much better position to sell electric cars to us than make a market in petrol cars where they are so far behind. That means they'll be near equal partners in sales to the established car companies, finding sales much easier. There's a parallel in the digital cameras I mentioned above, film cameras were only made by traditional camera companies and no-one else stood a chance, but now all manner of electronic companies like Sony and Casio make them and compete on equal terms.

I take the 160 miles claim with a pinch of salt, probably more like 60 miles in practice, especially as the battery ages and loses capacity, but thats more than enough to cover the vast majority of people's car journeys with the petrol engine only used on the occasional long run. We could see a future where the motorways and major A roads will be the only places to hear IC car engines.

I don't think the fast charge will be available on production cars with current LiFePO4, and as we've discussed, the infrastructure can't supply for this need so it will be politically frowned upon. I'm sure fast charge for vehicles is a production dead end and won't be researched for much longer now.

My guess is 2011 for the BYD in Britain, though it might just make late 2010. The USA will probably be the first export market to get them.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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What the hell is BYD?

Rod
Derrick asked me earlier in the thread Rod, here's the link below to my answer. I'd also posted a thread about this new method e-car some while ago:

BYD car

Here's a link to a site with some added information.

Treehugger

These are in full production and selling in China.

And here's the link to my original Charging Post thread on this:

Chinese innovation
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