Etra

[Bigbee]

Maybe this article is badly written or Im having an even thicker day than normal.

In simple terms what are ETRA wanting?

Bike Europe - News: Second Meeting On European e-Bike Regulations

 

[Alex728]

from an earlier article

by "type approval" they mean what we sometimes call in this country "getting a VOSA plate" for a newly built or modified vehicle to confirm it is approved to use on our roads, which as flecc has mentioned a few times is what you would need if you (or a big company) builds a machine more powerful than an e-bike which then has to be approved as a moped...

as a best case it could mean the faster "s-class" is permitted on UK roads (although I bet the whingers and haters will try and stop it on an "anti-EU" platform)
This development raises two questions:

1. Are the 250 W and 25 km/h limitations the most appropriate specifications for excluding vehicles from the type-approval procedure, thus classifying them as bicycles?
2. Is the type-approval procedure for mopeds and motorcycles the most appropriate homologation procedure for electric bikes not excluded from type-approval?

 

[flecc]

It does read badly. Basically it's about the disagreement between member states on the limitations of both the unregistered types of e-bikes like those we use, and the laws on the registered high speed classes like the 25 mph (40 kph) S models from Flyer and Kalhoff.

For example, EU regulations are for pedelec only on the unregistered class, but the British regulations at present permit throttle only operation. In another example, only Germany in the EU permits the registered high speed type at present, despite there being the basic EU law permitting them, while Britain and some others appear opposed to this class altogether.

The meetings are to try and iron out these differences and many others so that the legislation and usage can be fully harmonised across the EU.

N.B. Post crossed with Alex's.
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[eddieo]

I "worry" regards registration of E Bikes as I have poor eyesight. I manage at the moment and will probably get through another 3 year review for my driving licence but the clock is ticking...

e bikes may end up as my only means of personal transport eventually. But it has just occurred to me, even if e bikes had to be registered you probably would not need a licence to ride one would you??

 

[HarryB]

I "worry" regards registration of E Bikes as I have poor eyesight. I manage at the moment and will probably get through another 3 year review for my driving licence but the clock is ticking...

e bikes may end up as my only means of personal transport eventually. But it has just occurred to me, even if e bikes had to be registered you probably would not need a licence to ride one would you??

I doubt they will ever put your restricted ebike into a class of their own I think they will all be classed as bicycle. The high speed class, not that we ever get that, will be a different matter. I have a colleague at work who is registered blind but still comes in on his bicycle (yes he wears headphones and listens to the radio). I think you are safe for a while.

 

[flecc]

As Harry says, there's no question of any member state asking for registration of our low speed e-bikes, so no need to worry. The only reason there's registration for the high speed class is so that the existence of the compulsory insurance on those can be monitored. Without registration and a number plate, that would be impossible.
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[eddieo]

Thanks Harry and Flecc!

So....the high speed versions need registration +insurance, BUT would you need a licence to ride one

 

[Straylight]

Now, that's a very good question, as I see an argument for a new class of two wheeled vehicle that requires a registered owner, but no licence. Of course there's the whole buisiness of proof of identity if one were to be stopped by the police, but this could be included in the registration documents. The downside being that you couldn't then lend your bike to anyone else, without including them on the registration.

EDIT: Silly me, you'd just have to have a comp/any rider insurance policy - wouldn't you?

 

[flecc]

Thanks Harry and Flecc!

So....the high speed versions need registration +insurance, BUT would you need a licence to ride one

No, they have no driving licence for them in Germany and the EU regulations for the high speed class don't include any provision for one. No member state has indicated a desire for one either, but it's apparent that all the other member states outside of Germany just don't want to pass the necessary local regulations to permit the high speed class at all.

Germany has always been the odd one out where speed is concerned, their unlimited speed autobahns being an illustration of that. Britain by contrast has always been inclined to ever more restrictive speed limits on all vehicles. Quite how this lot will ever reach enough agreement for road transport policy co-ordination baffles me, since the range of views is so wide.

Personally I think the Italians have the answer, pass all the restrictive laws and then completely ignore them. Riding scooters motorbikes etc without crash helmets? No problem. Eight year old wants to ride his own mini-moped about town with his mother on her scooter? No problem. What do you do when anything goes wrong under this free-for-all? Sort it out individually, no problem. It's an attitude I greatly admire, but then I am half Italian.
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[eddieo]

i rememeber bits on this before about the swiss flyer and such....

so these bikes are illegal here? what is to stop you picking one up and bringing it back? Then pretend you are Italian if stopped riding it?

but I don't really like the Panasonic style bikes. Is there a near equivalent to our wisper/ezee models that could be imported and have a throttle retro fitted to it

I supose this would have to be a USA bionex bike?

 

[Straylight]

I had an idea the other day whilst riding, of a law to require the use of a speed restrictor on any road that was subject to a speed limit below the national one. So all e-bikes would be required to have an equivalent of the Wisper's green button. Admittedly unenforceable, but then no more than the current regulations, and also an encouragement toward the self responsibility. The limit on motor power could then be raised to make bikes capable of climbing even the steepest hills a possibility.

 

[Alex728]

i rememeber bits on this before about the swiss flyer and such....

so these bikes are illegal here? what is to stop you picking one up and bringing it back? Then pretend you are Italian if stopped riding it?

3 points on your license and "donating" £3000 or more of your property to the local constabulary, that said it may be legal to ride on a CBT or motorbike license provided the machine was certified first via VOSA... But then as a bog-standard motorbike is faster and cheaper no one is gonna bother with this..

 

[flecc]

i rememeber bits on this before about the swiss flyer and such....

so these bikes are illegal here? what is to stop you picking one up and bringing it back? Then pretend you are Italian if stopped riding it?

but I don't really like the Panasonic style bikes. Is there a near equivalent to our wisper/ezee models that could be imported and have a throttle retro fitted to it

I supose this would have to be a USA bionex bike?

They are illegal here despite the EU class for them, since our government has not passed the permissive regulations. Those riding the Flyer S and Kalkhoff S class on the roads are taking a risk which could result in them losing their driving licence since they are riding a bike that can only be legally classified as a moped/motorcycle and are not insured.

You've rightly guessed that a hub motor S class bike would probably use the BionX, since the only one so far in Germany is the Riese and Muller model with the most powerful BionX available, 500 watts. It's introduction was delayed for a few months since the standard for the high speed class was always 250 watts, the same as the low speed class, so the German authorities had to bring in permission for that with EU co-operation. In a way that's a pity since it makes it even more difficult for countries like Britain to accept the class.
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[Straylight]

Perhaps, as e-bikers, we should be lobying for legislation that is both safe and practical, instead of leaving it up to the powers that be. What did you guys think of my idea, anyway?

I believe the more debate we have on open forums, the more our voice is likely to be heared. Any legislator/researcher working to resolve this issue is bound to have a quick scan of these pages from time to time, don't you think?

 

[Alex728]

I help run a youth lifestyle site for the electronic dance music scene and when discussing anything controversial in public, its not always a good thing to have "the powers that be" monitoring and have your voice heard... This country does permit an amount of free speech but it must be used very wisely

that said I think maybe the only thing with a chance of working is modern Chinese-style "responsible civil disobedience". in China the limit of e-bikes is 12mph (not sure about power) but it appears that a combination of higher power machines becoming mainstream, after market tweaks and most importantly responsible riding has meant that faster machines have not led to the spate of collisions the authorities feared, and they are letting people ride faster, not enforcing the unworkable law and haven't sent the tanks in...

if someone is pedalling how can a bobby tell if a fast e-bike is actually under power or not, especially in areas of high traffic noise?

 

[eddieo]

found these dolphin bikes from stomrad while having a look around

TINYLINK.com


TINYLINK.com

plus the link to the forum has some useful info.....

 

[flecc]

that said I think maybe the only thing with a chance of working is modern Chinese-style "responsible civil disobedience".

That's very similar to the Italian way that I commented on above. The Italians have always done this and have the advantage over the Chinese of having a local Police forces that are totally complicit.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be in the British nature of the majority in the UK to do this, so those who do tend to be isolated and often subject to disapproval. Too many in our population seem to have an unsatisfied desire to be policemen, so it's perhaps fortunate that most know so little about e-bikes. In accord with your advice Alex, it's best we don't draw attention to this subject and arm those wannabee police officers and legislators with knowledge that causes us problems.

Many have previously advocated as Straylight does above that we campaign, but the chances of campaigning resulting in action on a Europe wide matter is practically zero on past evidence.
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[Alex728]

That's very similar to the Italian way that I commented on above. The Italians have always done this and have the advantage over the Chinese of having a local Police forces that are totally complicit.

I read the (English) versions of chinese news (to my shame, it seems that I will be reaching my 60 or 70s myself before I can read a local Chinese version ) but to be fair in areas where e-bikes are permitted I'm not hearing of the cops hassling people for speeding on e-bikes or indeed many RTCs. I think even Chinese cops have better things to do with their time.. There was a clampdown in Singapore but their road system is like ours and shares pedestrian and cycle paths (as jaywalking on the road is heavily punished) and this invariably did lead to collisions!

Many have previously advocated as Straylight does above that we campaign, but the chances of campaigning resulting in action on a Europe wide matter is practically zero on past evidence.
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often it puts peoples backs up and achieves the opposite, especially when the middle england lot are disproportionately frightened of being knocked over by cyclists anyway..

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Powerful ebikes

At the recent Eurobike we showed a new bike aimed at the US market, the 905se 500S.

This 500W Wisper was one of the raves at the show and was certainly the most sort after by people wanting test rides.

It was limited to 25kph however the ride was fantastic it dragged my 20 stones up hills and around the fairground at a steady 15.5mph no problems under throttle only. The down side however was the 36V 14A battery was depleted at a considerable rate compared to the 250W model, the bike was certainly no more dangerous than it's less powerful sister indeed I would argue it was safer as hill climbing was so much easier.

My point is this bike was ordered by the Swiss and Italians in favor of the 250 models, proving Flecc's point about the Italians simply not caring and just getting on with it. The introduction of a more powerful electric bike in my opinion is essential, if the speed is to be increased then I believe that tougher regulations regarding braking, lighting and frame strength should be introduced and maybe it wpuld be prudent to see the minimum age raised from 14 to 16.

If I were to stamp 250W on the motor, would anyone even notice the difference?

Finally we did ship in two of these 500S models in under a special order from our dealer in Bristol, I believe the people who bought them are Pedelecs members. If you read this guys I would love to hear your thoughts!

All the best David

 

[flecc]

That's a well made point about safety David, it's long been recognised that underpowered vehicles are the least safe within any performance area. A 500 watt e-bike maintaining a good speed on hills is far safer for the rider than a 250 watt one struggling at low speed and being passed by faster traffic twice as often.

Europe has shown itself to be happy for these 500 watt bikes to be included in the high speed 40 kph class, but I think it will be an uphill struggle to get approval for more power within the unregistered 25 kph class.

Probably best we just pretend dual nationality and say, "non c'è problema" or "senza problema" and get on with riding them.
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