Ezee Forte - not so sure after A-to-B review

[frank9755]

I had been intending to buy a Forte in November, which is the window when I can use my employer's Cycle to Work scheme. I have to say I'm not so sure now.

I've just read the review that A to B has done of the Forte (& Forza) in the latest edition. I found it a little disappointing. If you haven't seen it, the bike they tested seems to perform as expected in being almost as fast as the Torq on the flat and significantly better on hills. However they did flag brakes as being poor, the suspended forks as being a problem - waving around when braking and leaking oil - and they question whether it is worth the price premium over the Sprint.

As it happens I've just been on holiday and, for the first time, rode a bike with suspended forks for a short while. I have to say I found it wierd, especially when standing up to climb a hill, as the handlebars seemed to bounce up and down, wasting my energy in the process. Why do manufacturers keep putting suspended forks on electric bikes?

- Has anyone got an F-series bike? How have they found them?
- Are the Wisper bikes, which seem to have similar specs, have the motor in the rear which seems to be a clear advantage, but don't (yet) have the same track record, a viable alternative?

Also, in catching up after my hols on all the posts on here, its been a little concerning to read more and more evidence and opinion against Lithium batteries. I'm not sure if the F-Series is available with NiMH. I'm pretty sure Wisper is Li only.

I'm willing to pay what it costs for a decent specification bike, but it's not clear what that is, and I haven't got the design and engineering skills (and time) of Flecc to customise one!

Inspiration welcome!

Frank

 

[hobo1]

Hi Frank.

I have not had my AtoB mag delivered yet, so I can't comment on that. The braking on my Forza is much better than my Torq. The Forte is similar spec to the Torq so I would expect it to be similar. As far as the suspension forks are concerned there O.K. up to now: though I have been using high quality sus' forks on my marin. Only time will tell how the lower spec forks behave in the future. I am still knocked out by the Forza, but if things go wrong that opinion could change, (as with anything).

Cheers David.

 

[HarryB]

Why do manufacturers keep putting suspended forks on electric bikes?

I think once you have ridden the Torq on London's roads for 20 miles a day, 5 days a week you would be fairly desperate for front suspension forks (I know I am!). The other solution is to put the motor on the back wheel but eZee are pretty wedded to a front motor for most of their bikes.

I am dissapointed about the brakes and to be honest I cannot see where the £200 premium over the Torq comes from (let alone £400 over the upcoming Wisper 905se). It has got a more powerful motor, better brakes and cheap suspension forks, but they don't add up to £200 and that rules it out for me. As with the Torq it has the ability to be derestricted and if you want to ride off road or are happy to ride illegally then that might be worth paying extra for.

As for the battery all I can say is that there are a lot of us wrestling with the same Lithium/NiMH problem. Lithium is simply not up to the job for any serious ebiking.

 

[flecc]

I share your views about the energy wasting and cycling inefficiency of suspension forks Frank9755, but as Harryb has said, a front motor bike without them can be a pain due to the hammering force of the unsprung weight up through to the wrists.

Translating motor cycle forks successfully onto bicycles will always be a problem given the weight limitations on the latter.

Unfortunately fashion plays a big part too, so most of the rear motor bikes like the Wisper are blighted by unnecessary suspension forks just to satisfy those who know no better.

Ditto to the above comments on Lithium. The quicker it's abandoned the better.
.

 

[frank9755]

David,
That's reassuring on the forks - thanks. I hope your Forza continues to deliver. I think I am leaning more towards that than the Forte now (but I'm not sure about the wierd-sounding cruise control thingy! I'd need to understand it a bit better)

Harry,
You seem to be agreeing with A to B in questioning the value for the hefty premium for the new bikes. Especially when you add the Wisper in to the equation they do look a touch expensive. My PowaByke has a fair old judder on it with a front motor, so I'm starting to think that you probably do need suspension forks with that configuration. But if you have the motor at the back, there's no need for the susp. forks - which points me towards the Wisper (and changing the forks for solid ones is probably a mod that I could manage).
But then there's the battery. With Ezee there might be a chance of getting an NiMH but with Wisper there seems to be no chance!

Frank

 

[frank9755]

Flecc,
Thanks for your comments also.

Taking it all into account, I think I could get 90% of what I wanted if I could get either:
1. Ezee bike with the wheels swapped over (like the T-R)
2. An NiMH for a Wisper

1. was fascinating to read about but way beyond my skills, even if I had the time
2. ?? Is this possible? I've no idea! I suppose my first step should be to ask Doug or David what they think!

Frank

 

[flecc]

I don't know on that Frank, an NiMh would be a tall order and it might be difficult to fit the 30 cells into their case. You could probably do it yourself within the standard case as a one off custom job. If you wanted to do that I could advise on the charger and thermistor required, but the whole enterprise would add about £300.

In fairness on the forks, A to B have made the same comments about others like the Powacycle Windsor for example. But experienced cyclist Chris Stebbing tested the Forte in very hilly Sheffield for Velovision magazine and made absolutely no mention of the forks other than wondering if having them was necessary with the fat tyres fitted. Neither did he mention the brakes when speaking of the descents.

I know the A to B Dorchester area well and for miles around it's quite gently undulating, with just some steep slopes a long way off at the coast. So it may be a case of judgement on the benefits perceived, A to B getting little benefit from the prodigious hill climb capabilities and concerned with the cycle aspects, Chris Stebbing very much benefitting from the power and reporting accordingly.

So someone in a hilly area could easily be happy with it and not be concerned otherwise.
.

 

[frank9755]

Flecc,

Thanks again for some more perspective. I remember reading David Henshaw's comments on the Powacycle forks as well - I guess it is probably one of his pet dislikes. My main use is going to be for flat commuting in West London with only the odd hilly weekend, so cycling characteristics are at least as important for me as climbing muscle.

I did read somewhere (I think on this site - trying to find where) one of the Wisper guys saying they were looking to develop a lead acid option to give buyers a low cost option and choice of batteries, so NiMH might just be on their agenda. I shall post back if I find anything out!

Frank

 

[flecc]

Thanks Frank. I hope to be seeing David Miall shortly and intended speaking of batteries so we'll see what transpires.
.

 

[flecc]

Back again Frank.

I've found the entry about lead technology batteries that you were asking about. Here's the link.
.

 

[frank9755]

Thanks Flecc,
I should have found it as it was part of a response to me noting they hadn't made it to the sustainability fair in Camden! I'd be interested to hear if David / Wisper has any more battery plans in the pipeline.

Frank

 

[electric.mike]

wisper quote

This means that 1, customers will have a choice of battery and therefore price (the Lithium Manganese battery and management system on the 905e cost almost the same as the rest of the bike,

this statement says it all really if you haven't the need for a light bike, so don't want to pay a premium for low weight you should have the choice,a lot said about when you have to ride it home without battery help,that didn't stop hundreds of thousands of people buying two stroke mopeds and having to ride them home without engine help and the compression lever pulled in.
at the moment we are being pushed in the direction of expensive ebikes using untried technology which we are testing at our expense, i know what to expect from lead acid and it will do me fine, if one fails early i will spend £75 on a new set.

signed stick in the mud unwilling to try unproved technology mike

 

[flecc]

I think the existence of the Lithium battery problem results from a couple of things. First what I've been told about the Chinese reluctance regarding riding up hills, sounds strange I know, but apparently they don't understand our obsession with hill climbing, and I've seen many photos of Chinese pushing their bikes in adverse circumstances. Of course if they only test ride on the flat, lithium batteries perform well, as our members in flat areas already know. Second, from the propensity of suppliers to establish themselves in flat areas, so they don't experience the problem and often don't understand it.

But there is another side to this battery question though, and when used with lower power drains, they also perform well, even on hills. I've reported on how the the Q bike was able to bring an unusable Li-ion back into use, simply because it's easy motor gearing and high bike efficiency means it only needs half throttle even for the toughest climbs.

I'm confident that Powacycle won't experience problems with their new Li-polymer batteries, in that instance because the peak power of under 300 watts means the demands on the battery will be easier. It's on the high power bikes with double that like eZee and Wisper that the cut-outs have been experienced. For those higher power bikes the only answer with current lithium technology is higher capacity, up from 10 to about 14 Ah would do the trick and greatly reduce the voltage drop under load.

Of course that still leaves the shorter life problem, but that's less serious than being unable to complete journeys without being brought to a halt due to cut-out.
.

 

[DBCohen]

Harry,
You seem to be agreeing with A to B in questioning the value for the hefty premium for the new bikes. Especially when you add the Wisper in to the

Frank

Frank,

One of my first comments when 50Cycles issued the F-bike press releases were that they seemed to be very expensive. This has been compounded by the fact that they have streamlined their offerings around the £1000 mark, and the Sprint derivatives (Cadence and Chopper) are no longer offered. As the F series are a poor choice for Cyclescheme (which often has a £1000 cap), I do believe that 50Cycles are running the risk of driving sales to their competition. Maybe eZee have something new they are developing for the mid-range?

If you don't want a Torq due to its limitations, and don't think an F is worth the 25% extra over a £1000 bike, you might want to speak to 50Cycles about whether they will source you something ex-catalogue.

David.

 

[flecc]

Those prices, they seem to be the trend.

Giant took a previously used US front hub motor and stuck it in a step-through, the Suede at £600. Then they introduced a new step-through model with that motor on the Continent, not seen here, oddly called the Argue and a bit dearer.

Finally in it's fourth "hand-me-down" it's in a lower voltage form in another step-through, the Twist 1, with an extra battery at an eye watering £1400.

An overall 133% increase in a year? Makes the rest look like bargain basement.
.

 

[prState]

this statement says it all really if you haven't the need for a light bike, so don't want to pay a premium for low weight you should have the choice

I'd be quite happy if someone come up with the upgradable model bike instead of just different versions. If I had the to option pop in more powerful motor on my twist for one day, just like changing to a larger battery, that would work for me.

Sort of like when I had my Honda. The b series engines were capable of changing from the 160hp b16, to 190hp b18, and also the torqeurer b20. (not that you could just pop one in and one out, but parts were compatible for different size motors).

Someone needs to invent though.

 

[electric.mike]

is this the lead silicone battery in use for a scooter.

mike

 

[frank9755]

There's a more positive review of the Forte in VeloVision, which I've now read. It's carried out by a reviewer who has less experience of electric bikes (hardly anyone apart from possibly Flecc could have more than David Henshaw at A to B!). However as Flecc points out early on in this thread, he doesn't make any negative comments about the forks or other main cycling characteristics of the bike, but does praise its hill-climbing muscle. Given this, the feedback from hobo1 plus the broadly positive feedback I've heard on the quality of Ezee bikes in general, I can't imagine the Forte (or Forza) wouldn't be a good bike.

However, picking up on DBCohen's point, its less clear that it is good value for money, compared to the rest of the market and even the other Ezee bikes. Given that 50cycles appears to have been selling out as fast as they can get the stock, I can understand why they have pushed the price a bit however, as has been pointed out, the risk for them is that it has created a gap in the market for others to fill!

I'll need to think about this one..!

Frank

 

[frank9755]

Modular upgrades

prstate said
"I'd be quite happy if someone come up with the upgradable model bike instead of just different versions."

Interesting idea; maybe electric bikes will go like computers - add a bit more RAM or a bigger hard disk..?
I guess the problem is that the individual modules (ie battery, motor) are too expensive, and the components are (currently) not designed to enable easy upgrading (eg add-on cells to the battery).
But who knows - maybe it will go that way??

I'm not familiar with your Honda example; was it a motorbike? Could you really just swap in a bit more power..?

Frank

 

[coops]

I think it should be possible (not necessarily easy or quick though) to swap a motor wheel in an ebike, for more torque or speed for instance, but frankly shouldn't be necessary if hub motors had gears too, or even with current simple hub motors if you have a "universal" ebike... for all round use .

Re the hill test & climbing "muscle", did they say anything about climbing "stamina" too? i.e. range in hills, no just ability to climb them? I think thats a very important & little quoted statistic for ebikes. I believe the Forte did 15 miles in hills, but was that full throttle, or with some power economy?

Stuart.