eZee Torq owners: What range are you getting from your battery?

[mithril]

Thanks flecc - you put my mind at ease about the extra weight. I bungee my spare on the rack, then put the panniers on top of it which makes it a pain to get to obviously. I did try to put the battery in one of the panniers but it's too big for mine.

I'll probably just derestrict one weekend and go out for a play rather than risk my commute then!

Mithril

I think your range will suffer quite a lot when you switch to derestricted. Don't worry about the weight of carrying a spare battery though, I've often done this and don't even notice the weight, or the inbalance of having it in one side pannier. This even remains true if I carry a NiMh which is about a kilo heavier.

Also, the chap who did the London to Paris run was carrying two spare batteries, and he had an injured leg.

 

[flecc]

That's what I've done to ascertain ranges, go out on pleasure jaunts, taking a spare battery with me and keeping within twelve direct miles of home.

 

[Baboonking]

Hi there,

I've not yet had the opportunity to try a torq and I'm not sure how well this mod would work with torq's wiring and battery management system but as a generality if your taking 2 battery packs its better to connect them in parallel and discharge from both packs at the same time. By doing so you would have the loses from internal resistance in both packs. see here http://www.50cycles.com/info_lith.shtml

I imagine that if the bike is restricted this would translate in two more than twice the range. Whereas if you its derestricted much of the extra energy would be used up as higher speed and greater acceleration.

 

[flecc]

Baboonking

The efficiency would be greater with the two in parallel, just as it would if it had one battery of twice the capacity. In both cases however, the result would be a doubling of range, there would be no meaningful increase in speed on level ground when derestricted since it's voltage derived maximum is already being reached at approximately 22 mph. Current (amps) don't affect ultimate motor speed at all, and connecting in parallel just increases the current delivery potential. The speed up steeper hills could be increased just a little since the chemical exhaustion that the Torq Li-ion suffers in high drain conditions would not be present so power would be maintained rather than falling away.

Connecting the two batteries in series instead to give about 72 volts would make the Torq go very fast indeed for a few seconds, after which it would probably go bang instead.

 

[Baboonking]

True,

But don't forget voltage sag from the internal resistance of the battery. I tried this recently with my currie system. Before i had one 24 volt 13AH pack now I have 2 24 volt 13AH packs in parallel. With the packs in parallel I have gained at extra 2 mph. The pack voltage now only drops one by less than 1 volt at maximum speed on the flats. whereas before there was slightly more sag. Like you say the big difference is on the hills, higher amp draw and the pack maintains its voltage.

Overall quite an improvement over swapping between packs.

 

[flecc]

That's quite true on many bikes, and especially motors like the Currie with those small capacity batteries which drop voltage easily under demand, but the Torq's Crystallyte is quite different. There's a substantial drop in motor demand as the revs rise, at 22 mph it's surprisingly low, so the gain would be smaller. That's why I said "no meaningful increase", acknowledging there'd be some, but not enough to concern us. As you say though, using two in parallel is always better overall.

 

[David]

Re. range from Torq with Li ion battery

I did a reasonably scientific test test on this when I first got the bike. Ran it three times from full charge to flat with no assist. The route involved one large hill (Alexander Palace). Figures were:

31.5 Km (19.5miles)
34.5 Km (21.5 miles)
32.5 Km (20 miles)

These figures are pure battery with no relevant pedalling.

David

 

[David]

Re. Torq range de-restricted

I don't now remember whether the above figures were before or after I de-restricted the bike; but certainly I haven't noticed any significant drop in range since de-restricting and the bike is infinitely more fun. I certainly won't be going back to restricted mode.

David

 

[flecc]

Hello David

They look like restricted figures in my experience, derestricted tend to be more in the 15 to 18 miles area in most areas. Your conclusion regarding the fun of the derestricted Torq is almost universal, few return to restricted once having changed, though occasionally a commuter does due to the extra range of restricted enabling a journey on one battery.

P.S. I notice you're using kilometres, is that because you haven't switched the setting on your Velo 5 speedo?

 

[Jed]

Yeah, 15 mph seems so slow now! I've tried riding it at this speed a few times but it's just not satisfying so it's time to open the throttle

thanks
Jed

 

[flecc]

Yes, it's weird isn't it. Pedalling a normal bike at 15 mph seems very satisfying, plenty fast enough and we think we're doing well, but on an electric it's actually tedious. On the Quando folder it's maddening. After the initial peak of voltage gives about 16 to 17 mph for a few minutes, it settles to about 14 to 15 mph. But that's just beyond pedal assistance on it's single speed, so I just have to sit there bored and wait for another road user to do something exciting like crash.

 

[mithril]

Derestring Torq

I'm intending to check out my range derestricted at the weekend (obviously on private land ) and I've heard it's a very straightforward process, but... could someone tell me where the restrictor is on the Torq please?

Many thanks.

 

[flecc]

Yes of course mithril. Turn the bike upside down and you'll see some wiring joins under the bottom bracket. Two of them are through joins from parts of the bike to the controller, but one is a stub going nowhere. Latest models have a plug that can be disconnected, but earlier ones need the insulation cut away. Inside there's a tiny terminal block with a wire looping between the two terminals. Just unplug the pull out end and tuck it into the insulation at the side so the link is broken. Then bind the block again with insulation, job done.

 

[David]

Hello David

They look like restricted figures in my experience, derestricted tend to be more in the 15 to 18 miles area in most areas. Your conclusion regarding the fun of the derestricted Torq is almost universal, few return to restricted once having changed, though occasionally a commuter does due to the extra range of restricted enabling a journey on one battery.

P.S. I notice you're using kilometres, is that because you haven't switched the setting on your Velo 5 speedo?

And there was me wondering why everybody is quoting in miles ;-)

How do I change the setting?

Many thanks

David

 

[flecc]

Hello David

To do this you have to start at the beginning by removing the battery which loses the current total mileage. Then put the battery back in and you'll see the kph indicator. Press the setting lever once and it changes to mph. Then on the back of the Velo 5, use a pointed object to press the grey recessed small button once briefly. Then it's ready for use, and clock setting if desired. The clock with mph is a 12 hour one, the 24 hour one being only with kph, the manufacturers apparently believing only Continentals can cope with a 24 hour clock!

 

[robert letts]

OK Robert

First the red light is not a problem. I wish manfacturers would do as the long established e-bike makers like Heinzman and Giant do, stick the meter where it can't be seen when riding so it doesn't worry people. You see, there is no way that a battery's content can truly be measured by a meter, the only measure we have for the content is watt/hours, so it can only be measured by using up the content over time. The meters we have just measure the small voltage drop as the battery content is used up, and that's roughly good enough a measure when the bike is standing still. Trouble is, when on the move and we open the throttle wide, the current drain into the motor also drops the voltage, so that's recorded on the meter as well, nothing to do with the battery content. The equivalent on a car is when we plug the starter with headlights on, the headlights dim due to the voltage drop the motor causes. When the weather is cold, that drops the battery voltage as well, so you can see how pointless these meters really are.

The Li-ion batteries are nominally 37 volt, the NiMh are 36 volt. If I put the NiMh that I also have into the Torq fully charged, I can go onto the hill outside my home and get the red light on immediately, simply because it's started with a lower voltage point, nothing to do with what's in the battery. So my advice on that is, forget the meter when on the move, better still, put a strip of black PVC insulating tape over the LEDs, and just check the level when standing still. Find out your range, starting with an assumption of around 13 miles and gradually take a bit more until you find the cut out point near to home.

The shudder is probably just head bearing adjustment, this beds in very quickly and often loosens in the first few miles. Any cycle dealer could fix this easily.

However, none of this alters the fact that you have the wrong bike I'm afraid. The Torq is no hill climber, the motor is far too high geared in the 28" wheel for that. It's the equivalent of having a car locked into top gear all the time, fine for gentle main road slopes, but brought to a stall on steeper slopes. Indeed, the manual with the bike says up to 10% slopes, so anything over 1 in 10 is outside it's specification. I also have a Quando which uses the same motor in a 20" wheel, and that can pull away without pedalling up a 12% (1 in 8) hill, so you can see it's just the wheel size that's the problem. The eZee Sprint with the 7 speed hub would have been a much better choice since it's lower motor gearing makes it a better climber despite it's slightly lower power motor (500 watts against 570 watts). As you've done such a low mileage, I suggest you try to negotiate a change of model with 50cycles as the only solution that will give some satisfaction.

P.S. You're right about the derailleur ratios, the 58" low really being a middle gear. From a design point of view it's right of course, since the gears need to match the motor gearing so that a rider can give help within the motor's operating range. However, that gearing emphasizes that the bike is not a hill climber. Changing the chainwheel from the 52 teeth to 48 would help slightly, but not very much.

thank you very much for the advice - So its not really worth swapping the chainwheel. I cant see the sprint for sale. I will contact 50 cycles again, who dont seem particularly quick to respond; I rang them last week and filled in their fault email box but I have had no response so far.

 

[flecc]

Yes Robert, the protracted delay in supply of the Sprint models has certainly complicated your situation. As you've rightly concluded from my answer, a chainwheel change will just give a marginal improvement in the cycling effort you're able to add to hill climbing, but will do nothing for the motor's ability to help. Once speed is below about 12 mph, the Torq's output drops off very rapidly, which is why it's not a good choice for steep hill country where hills are often impossible to climb at that speed or higher.

That said, it's an irony that people buy electric bikes to help with hill climbing, when this is the major area of weakness for virtually all legal power bikes. The marketing need to gear them to reach the 15 mph limit conflicts with the need for low gearing the limited power to enable hill climbing. In this respect I'm pleased to see some like Giant and Powabike now marketing bikes which only power to 13 mph, benefitting a little on hills in consequence.

One manufacturer does spell out the situation, Heinzmann with their legal power motors, which are offered with low gearing for good hill climbing but only 11.5 mph speed, normal gearing for 15 mph and some hill climbing limitations, and high gearing for 19 mph with poor hill climbing. You can see where the Torq fits in this scheme of things, very high gearing for 22 mph and even poorer steep hill climbing.

With the Sprint situation as it is at present there's little else I can advise to help with your situation. In my own case, I didn't expect much from the Torq's hill climbing, but it was a bit worse than I'd anticipated and there are two routes in my area that are barred to it. I've been able to choose other routes to avoid that problem, so wonder whether you can work around the problem in a similar manner. If you can avoid those steepest hills, the Torq is very rewarding otherwise, one of the most enjoyable and entertaining rides around, especially when derestricted.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

itspeteinit

Have not had the Torq long enough to be categric about range. I live in Mere, Wilts close to the Blackmore Vale. I have to take into consideration more then the terrain - I am at the sixth age of 'Shakespeares Man'.
The local hill which I am trying to tame is the A30 west of Shaftesbury going towards Ivy Cross which climbs 43 metres for 750 metres on stage 1 equal to 1:17 and climbs a further 64 metres in 500 metres equal to 1:8. I could just get up here with my unmodified Torq with a rest above the underpass to Gillingham. So the bike will do it but I cant -YET!
My point here is that the trip is to the Doctors surgery is a round trip of 20 miles from home and no problem with battery discharge.
The other mileage test was in Galloway, Scotland. From Haugh of Urr to Sandyhills Bay via Dalbeattie and the A road and return via the unclassified road to the east and the B road. Then from Haugh to Castle Douglas up 2 mile climb and then return to Haugh. A total of 30 miles but the red light was on coming along the flat at the Haugh over the Bridge. I work hard to keep fit(ish) but it does not amount to a great deal of imput. By the way the road to Sandyhills and back is surprisingly flat.
I am posting details of my modifications re. gearing on another thread.
itspeteinit

 

[robert letts]

50 cycles has had a go at sorting out the problems I have had with the bike whilst under warranty which is good. The brakes shudder a little bit less and they have put a larger chainwheel on the final easiest gear which helps a little with hills. The red light comes on just as quickly after a couple of pedal assist miles (they left the battery with me so did not test that). I was originally sold the bike on the basis that it would be good for hills but the reality is as you say and that the motor power is fairly feeble on our somerset hills. I guess I should move to east anglia.

Maybe I should sell it and recover some of the loss. I tried a giant lafree which is better at hills undoubtedly, but the gears were a bit troublesome to engage correctly (perhaps an adjustment thing) but overall it felt like a town bike to ride compared with the basic mountain bike set up of the ezee.

I have a small tip for those with short mudguards; you can fit a crudbuster front wheel mud guard with the rubber bands supplied to the far back of the ezee torq bike carrier and it stops mud flying up your backside.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the further information Robert. There's actually no problem with the power of the Torq motor of course, it's one of the most powerful bike motors around. It's just the fact that it's so high geared that's the problem in really hilly areas. The maximum power for hill climbing is at 12 mph, most other hub motor bikes like the Sprint have it at around 8 mph, so make better use of the power they've got when hill climbing. In car comparison terms, the Torq is in top gear so is fast, the Sprint is in the next gear down so climbs better.

This is well illustrated by the Twist you mention. That's only got two thirds the power of the other two, but because by changing you can get much lower gears, it's by far the best climber. You're right it is a utility bike, perhaps not as fashionable as mountain bike styling, but I'd argue the better for mixed road use and more sensible as an all rounder than mountain bikes.

Still, since when has fashion ever made sense?